Should Platform run on all nodes or should Platform run only on High Performance nodes ?

xkcd

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The following decision proposals have just landed on the matter.



 
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qwizzie

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Knipsel.JPG


Source : https://github.com/dashpay/FAQs/blob/master/Platform/platform-activation-hpmn-faq.md

This directly contradicts earlier statement of virgile and clearly shows there was no consensus for only the HPMN solutions among DCG. And yet here we are, asked to vote on Governance proposals that even DCG itself could not reach internal consensus on. So much for Sam's statement to only issue decision proposals, if internal consensus among DCG was reached for a HPM solution. At the time i was inclined to ask for those final vote numbers, but let it pass because i trusted virgile to provide us with reliable information (which is why i liked his post). I feel a bit like a fool now.

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qwizzie

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As development for the release of Dash Platform nears completion, certain drawbacks of the original plan that every Masternode would host Dash Platform have come to light. Voices of concern started forming this year that can be grouped into five main categories:

  • The approach of forcing Masternode owners to run Platform.
  • The performance of the system.
  • The safety of the system (it not going down).
  • The cost of the system to the network (ROI).
  • The fee cost to users.
We took these concerns seriously and thought about the best way to remedy them with solutions that would be relatively easy to implement. We came up with a solution called High Performance Masternodes that will be explained in this FAQ.
Source : https://github.com/dashpay/FAQs/blob/master/Platform/platform-activation-hpmn-faq.md

Another contradiction. The safety of the system and possible safety issues were actually never disclosed to the Dash community and only came to light in this discussion thread when Sam voiced concern about it himself. Which then led to questions about the safety of the system from me and from other Dash community members.

I am not getting a good impression of this FAQ so far.

I am starting to think it is perhaps best to just vote on which solution is best for the Dash network (which solution provides : the highest level of decentralization, the highest level of censorship resistance, the highest level of masternode whale concentration resistance with regards to future Platform voting) and for now just ignore the safety of the system part. Platform developers ignored it themselves for many many years, never discussed it before with MNO's / Dash community, so why should MNO's worry about it now, during this decision-making on how to start Dash Platform ?
 
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GrandMasterDash

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The stubborn c* didn't listen to any of the feedback or alternative solutions.

All three proposals must be considered void as DCG has made a shameless attempt to make substantial changes to the network topology, consensus and tokenomics without acquiring super majority. The Trust Protectors must intervene now and make a statement, this is exactly what you are here for.
 
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qwizzie

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Platform on all nodes solution estimate on dash.org/forum
Date : 13th of October 2022

At network start (no fees generated) AND Assuming the rewards even out with the market we get the following values..
All nodes run platform: 6.11%

At network start (no fees generated) AND Assuming platform nodes get slightly more rewards (educated guesses on how the system will stabilise).
All nodes run platform: 6.11%

At network start (no fees generated) AND Assuming platform nodes get slightly more rewards AND platform nodes run stronger hardware to better server the network and ensure their profits(educated guesses on how the system will stabilize and hardware used).
All nodes run platform: 6.11%
Source : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...gh-performance-nodes.53374/page-7#post-232371

Platform on all nodes solution estimate in the actual DCG decision proposal text
Date : 29th of November 2022

Every Masternode must run Platform (this solution) : 4.70%
Source : https://www.dashcentral.org/p/EVO-DECISION-EVERY-NODE-RUNS-PLATFORM

WTF ? How did we get from 6.11% annual yield to 4.70% annual yield ?

Update :

Knipsel.JPG

 
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GrandMasterDash

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Perhaps it would be best to give MNs and HPMNs one vote each instead of scaling up votes because of collateral. This way, humpback dash holders must choose between higher income (HPMNs) or more voting power (MNs).

@rion
 

qwizzie

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Looks like Dash annual yield / ROI for masternodes is nothing more then the percentage difference between 1000 dash (mn collateral) and 1073.2 dash (mn collateral + yearly masternode earnings).

*** Masternode hosting cost does not come into play. ***

See : https://dash-news.de/dashtv/#curr=USD&value=1000

Collateral : 1000 dash
Masternode Earnings : 6,10 dash per month x 12 months = 73.2 dash

Percentage difference between 1000 & 1073.2 is 7.32% (Dash masternode annual yield / ROI)

So why should DCG include masternode hosting cost in the calculations for Platform masternode annual yield, when pretty much every website showing masternodes annual yield / ROI does not include masternode hosting cost, when calculating the annual yield for normal masternodes ?

Is it not comparing apples with oranges ? And is it even needed ?
What would the annual yield / ROI percentage look like for each Platform start solution, without the masternode hosting costs ?
 
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xkcd

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Some big votes coming through this evening with the Blue Whale showing his fins and making a big splash for the 4k proposal along with the MasterBlaster. Keep tuned to Dash Decides 2022 right here and the dashpay sub reddit and the Discord and Twitter. :p

 
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peter

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big splash for the 4k proposal
Something, that I cannot understand.
Let me cite Solarguy on dashcentral.org:
But once I recognized the (in my view) inevitability of shared HP Evo-Platform nodes, my primary objection to the 10k solution evaporated and it is now a serious contender _for me._ It _is_ more profitable, which is fine by me.
And furthermore, 10k offers better performance and better security...
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Perhaps they are also responsible for the surge in comp-jan-mar?

Imagine, if humpbacks are voting like this now, what will it be like with HPMNs?
 

qwizzie

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rion's video presentation : Dash Platform Node Model Explanation


This not only describes in easy to understand words his 1K Dash Collateral High Performance Masternode (Voluntary) Solution, but also goes into full detail on all the other solutions. Very good video to watch, to get a better understanding of every Platform start solution currently on the network.

I am impressed with his multi-solution model.

He also use Masternodes & Platform nodes gross annual yield (excludes masternode hosting cost) and Masternode & Platform nodes net annual yield (includes masternode hosting cost. Precisely what i was wondering about before. Now we can compare apples with apples.

For those that need more understanding for each solution on the network with regards to annual yield estimate, overall chance of failure in a Platform quorum, masternodes / Platform network count, reaching equilibrium, how profitable each solution could potentially be for the early joiners before equilibrium is reached :
go watch his video.
 
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vazaki3

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As you can see above in Rion's superb video , if the 4k(10k) proposal passes the economic analysis reveal that it will result the reduction of masternodes from 5000 to 2500(2180).

What can an ordinary masternode (that owns less than 4k) do in order to prevent this catastrophic senario? The only way to stop the reduction of the number of the masternodes (if the 10k or 4k proposal passes) is to change the hardcoded (by the DCG) number of the 50% rewards allocated to the DashPlatform (a reward stolen from the masternodes's reward). But how can we change that number?

As always, the way to strike the stupid and the agents is to vote the numbers. And how can we vote the numbers in the current budget system?

Simple, you have to use the TERNARY or ΤRINARY or BASE3 NUMERAL system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_numeral_system

If you make the assumption that ABSTAIN VOTE=0, NO VOTE=1 and YES VOTE=2 , then you can vote from numbers 0-2.
if you cast TWO proposals (at the cost of 2 dash proposal fee) under the TERNARY system, you can vote numbers from 0-8
if you cast THREE proposals (at the cost of 3 dash proposal fee) under the TERNARY system, you can vote from 0-26.

So if you want to vote from 0% to 100%, you can divide 100/26=3.84 and thus if the average of the voting result of the budget vote is 1 then 3.84% is voted, if the average result of the budget vote is 10 then 38.4 is voted, if the average result of budget vote is 15 then 57.6% is voted e.t.c.

I have no incentives to propose such a system, because I am poor delegate voter holding 1 masternode vote, and also I hold only 6 dash in my wallet.

But if I were a masternode I would definitely ask a governance decision in order for this voting the numbers system to become legitimate.

Then I would cast a proposal in order to vote about the percentage of the masternode rewards that the platform system is planning to steal.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Conveniently, despite the pre-proposal "debate", DCG have provided only one solution with different parameters. From start to finish, they did not alter one thing in their one-and-only design.

And they completely ignored my suggestion for each masternode to have a public Liquidity Pool to raise the needed collateral. I know why; they have already written most of the code for HPMNs, so it's all a bit inconvenient to research and write a different solution.

Sam did admit 1K HPMNs would work with a lowering of collateral for regular MNs.. but once again, not good enough - never going to be good enough. The stubborn SOB just plowed ahead with his first and only idea, never had any intention of listening to anyone but himself.

So, I wish voting by numbers was a thing but unfortunately it all falls apart when there's a selfish c* at the top.

Maybe if someone makes a donation to mnowatch you do with it what you please.
 
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vazaki3

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People who vote YES for the 4K proposal.
https://mnowatch.org/latestlink_DashdUniqueHashVotes.html?3=EVO-DECISION-4K-HPMN

As you can see in the above link, approximately 32 individuals are proponents of the 4k solution, among them approximately 18 individuals own less than 4K.

These 18 individuals that own less than 4k are actually voting in favor of the reduction of their masternodes rewards!!!!
Are they nuts????


Obviously they are either agents, or completely stupid.
"Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Einstein.
 
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vazaki3

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vazaki3

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Or perhaps from the 18 masternodes more humpbacks are yet to be identified.
yes...you are right. Maybe these 18 supposed individuals are actually a single individual who obfuscates his vote.

Furthermore, the decline of dash's price is proportional to the individuals that hold 1k masternodes.

Have a look at mnowatch.org.
Back in 2018, when Dash was among the 10 greatest cryptos, the 1k masternodes were 158. https://mnowatch.org/distr_21-30-46-29-10-2018.txt
Now Dash is the 74th coin, and the 1k masternodes are only 36 . https://mnowatch.org/distr_2022-12-03-00-52-47.txt

The 4k and 10k masternodes should examine this statistic very seriously, before deciding to steal 50% of the rewards of the 1k masternodes.
 
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xkcd

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The ROI for 1k nodes is expected to be about the same as it is now due to the shorter payment cycle since overall there are fewer nodes being paid. This is expected to balance the reduction in their pay, however, to be sure the ROI improves, I think the 10k solution would be better.
 

vazaki3

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The ROI for 1k nodes is expected to be about the same as it is now due to the shorter payment cycle since overall there are fewer nodes being paid. This is expected to balance the reduction in their pay, however, to be sure the ROI improves, I think the 10k solution would be better.
50% of the masternodes reward will go to the Platform nodes.
If the ROI for the 1k nodes will remain the same, this means that the Dash community will become richer due to the Platform, but the 1k masternodes will not benefit from this richness.
 

GrandMasterDash

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The latest proposal for DCG compensation Jan-mar 2023 has just 37 No votes. The pieces are almost in place, the Dash DAO was divided and conquered. RIP.

Moving from the best payment network to censorable content storage. 50% stolen from the remaining pleb MNOs to play casino with fake decentralization. I hope the SEC comes down hard on these liars and scammers. Yes, lies by omission and scamming with their theft to pay for their PoS trojan.
 

xkcd

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The ROI for 1k nodes is expected to be about the same
Sorry, I have no idea what I was typing last night, the ROI for the 1k option(s) is the worst of the bunch and will be less than we get now, whereas the 4k option is the one where the ROI stays similar to what it is now and the 10k option being the best for everyone.
 
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xkcd

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The latest proposal for DCG compensation Jan-mar 2023 has just 37 No votes. The pieces are almost in place, the Dash DAO was divided and conquered. RIP.

Moving from the best payment network to censorable content storage. 50% stolen from the remaining pleb MNOs to play casino with fake decentralization. I hope the SEC comes down hard on these liars and scammers. Yes, lies by omission and scamming with their theft to pay for their PoS trojan.
This is a little over dramatic. The network is voting on how to start platform safely, Platform is a POS and expected to have about 30k DASH in value on it. Things we know about POS systems is they don't scale well with more nodes, luckily, for a simple merchant directory and dash pay app (pay to name) you don't need a whole bunch of decentralisation. There is no need to burden every node with this nonsense, so the network, big fish and small fish are voting to push that burden onto fewer nodes of 4k size and leave the main chain to run on the 1k nodes + 4k nodes. This seems perfectly reasonable to me.
 

GrandMasterDash

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If that was all Platform was intended for, you wouldn't need 5+ years development for usernames and merchant directory. I'm sure the devs would tell you it's much more powerful than that.

You've already lost sight of what happened here. Platform pricing, security and scalability were ultimately not deliverable so they stole from MNs to fund their high risk PoS shitcoin. Do you think it will stop there?
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Taylor stole from miners to incentivize more MNs. MN count decreased, never recovered. Price of dash is lowest in years.

Platform launches and there is a lot of excitement and substantial dash price increase. The euphoria slides after a few months.

Platform struggles to find successful dapps and meet expectations. Overall sentiment drops leading to a suppressed dash price. MNs whom had their rewards slashed will leave the network and the MN count falls. The expected outcome is that more HPMNs will appear, but the HPMNOs will be squeezed by hosting costs and a lack of users, so they too will leave the network. The equilibrium was found as overall node count on both sides is now lower. Low storage costs * Low user count = low income.

DCG will declare, stealing more rewards from MNs is necessary to encourage more HPMNs (just like Taylor). Eventually, DCG will declare that there is no functional need for MNs as HPMNs have sufficient processing redundancy. MNs will no longer be recognized (forked out) and the HPMNs will take all the rewards. Will they also dump PoW to steal the remains?

This is called "gentrification".
 
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