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Roadmap dates already innacurate?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stealth923, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. Stealth923

    Stealth923 Well-known Member
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    So, here we are in October with silence from the Core team. The roadmap was only just updated with dates, which I was holding the team to and thought to be accurate...why is communication and holding to a timeline so difficult for the core team? I am not just talking about this instance, I have been around since 2014.....

    Anyone have any updates to where each of the deliverable's below are, there was no information from the conference about any of the below?? did I miss some delay communication?? Should I just reset my expectations that this will be delivered sometime 2018? @Ryan Taylor @UdjinM6 @kot

    DashPay Wallet Alpha (September 2017)
    • Dash version of CoPay, pre-Evolution functions, on test-net
    • Will lead to full Evolution wallet (not merely a web wallet)
    • DashCore 12.2 Release (September 2017)
    • 2MB block size increase, activation in November 2017
    • 2MB / 5MB block research documentation
    • Launch of a read-only/view-only portal for project documentation which will be open to the entire community (to ensure transparency)

    Edit: And before people start with the "I would rather have it done properly and wait longer" message, we are paying the Core team to run a multi billion dollar organisation...if you release dates stick to them or communicate accordingly with your board(MNs)/investors.
     
    #1 Stealth923, Oct 5, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
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  2. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    - DashCore 12.2 Release (September 2017)
    I explained the issue with dates in roadmap there https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...uorum-exploit-method.16492/page-2#post-140935 As for actual results, we tested 2mb blocks and all other fixes and everything was looking good but we decided to test activation once again, from scratch. It took few additional days to fork and stabilize network and then few more to execute all the steps. Activation went smoothly. In fact it was too smooth which was suspicious and we figured out that there was a bug in activation code (which would cause IS fix to be useless btw). So we fixed it but because we'd like to execute activation cleanly we had to fork testnet yet again. We'll probably skip few initial tests which were ok and should not be affected by the bug to make it a bit faster this time but still a few days are needed. Then we'll start v12.2 testing thread here on forum and welcome everyone to join. Hopefully nothing will break and a week or so on top of that will be enough. With all this in mind, release date is going to be somewhere in the mid of Oct. I think.

    - 2MB block size increase, activation in November 2017
    According to DIP0001 its activation starts Oct 15th, 2017, activation window is 4032 blocks (~1week) and we need at least 2 of them (1 to lock in and 1 to activate), so 2mb block size increase in November is still quite possible unless new critical issues are found.
     
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  3. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I am okay with delays but I am not okay with the lack of updates / feedback. I get the whole secrecy / first-mover-advantage thing, but the prolonged absence of news is very disconcerting. In fact, I was thinking, maybe we should designate a day in October where we de-fund Core for 24 hours, just to send them a message. Yes, we want rock solid products but zero news is killing us.

    I also realize, MNOs shouldn't be trusted with sensitive project developments, but we have a news dao and it might be prudent to trust at least one person there so that timely and interesting news can be disseminated in a controlled manner.
     
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  4. akhavr

    akhavr Official Dash Dev
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    Is there a way a developer and MNO to participate in a 12.2 testnet?
     
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  5. AjM

    AjM Well-known Member
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  6. akhavr

    akhavr Official Dash Dev
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    I've guess I've tried to ask "when they will enable the testnet" in a different way ;)
     
  7. AjM

    AjM Well-known Member
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    I think that within a week, but only the core devs know when...
     
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  8. Leonidas

    Leonidas Active Member

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    Definitely agree with you. I actually fully trust our Core Team but it's true that when a groupe sees that it receives 1000 yes' and only few no's every month for a long time and this whatever has happened during the month (meaning no giving update or report has no consequences), might lead a group that is swamped with work to put report at the end of the line of priority. No that they don't want to do it, but as compared to maybe other deadlines, report are just seen as consequenceless...

    That's my theory, could be another reason but, anyways, the fact is, I don't want to be invested in a group or coin that cannot do a serious and monthly reporting.

    Let's put the report and communication with the community at the top of the priority line ! We are build on that, nothing else
     
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  9. radeon_jas

    radeon_jas New Member

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    ok
    Agree, today is 5th Oct, but where is Aug and Sept monthly report? Even if it is released today, we need a monthly report with 2 months delay?
     
    #9 radeon_jas, Oct 5, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  10. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I've never owned an iphone but back in the day, Jobs's "one more thing" moment was killer. Of course, dash is not apple, but for the conference, I was waiting for that moment. It wasn't a desire to see a pump, I just want people to see dash for what it is, a powerhouse, doing stuff that other cryptos only dream of. Not to say the conference was a failure because I'm sure the networking was invaluable. And btw, special mention to Chuck Williams, his "dash is a platform" thing was impressive. We need more people like him.

    I just want Core to help fill the void between Core and it's key stakeholders. It will inspire us, motivate us and focus our minds.
     
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  11. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    It's like they're looking for ways to tank confidence...

    It's nice that @UdjinM6 steps up to the plate in their absence. But, that only makes the actual problem that much more obvious; their absence.
     
  12. BoomStick

    BoomStick New Member

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    <rant>
    Lack of an official communication (or the quality of it) from the Core is quite disturbing. At the time roadmap has been published I tought that finally we have a good plan and deadlines, but now I'm quite dissapointed. I'm watching this project since 2015 and I see now that nothing has changed.

    I understand that Core Team doesn't want to pump the price by annoucing big integrations for DASH - the stability of the price is very important factor for merchants and users. But when they say that "major announcements" will be provided and then they don't deliver, it has quite negative impact on the price (what we see now). When the don't meet deadlines they set by themselves it looks really unprofessional.

    You'll say that price fluctuactions will decrease with more liquidity, but in my opinion we won't reach mass adoption if the price of the coin is going down, just because someone used wrong words to formulate conference agenda, or by missing deadlines all the time.

    I think that's actually good idea to send such clear message to the Core, that communication must be better.

    If you are a business owner you don't "trust" your employees, but you check their work instead. Trusting that the project will be completed on time (if ever) won't bring you good results.
    </rant>

    I'd like to see a post in General Annoucements section describing when exactly 12.2 will be delivered, what will be there, does the delay affect releases of Evo, are there any ideas how to make communication between the Core Team (employees) and MN owners (employers) better ?
     
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  13. David

    David Well-known Member
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    This is what frustrated me so badly about Ethereum, when I was waiting for it to launch. Software is *always* late. Always. I really wish that the powers-that-be would take the dates given them and add 3-6 months to them. Underpromise, then surprise everybody by overdelivering.

    We've got an awesome team and I'm very proud of them. I do wish somebody would add padding to our roadmap deadlines though. There are *always* unanticipated problems.
     
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  14. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    Well, if they haven't delivered an update by the end of October, I propose we go ahead with ABCD (A Boycott Core Day) :)
     
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  15. akhavr

    akhavr Official Dash Dev
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    Heh, I regularly doubled my team time estimates before presenting them to a customer. Guess what, sometimes we still missed a day :)

    Guess, that would be an issue until we'll launch a software developer AI ;)
     
  16. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    Part of the problem with these roadmap dates is that the project is so difficult to properly scope out when we're doing bleeding edge stuff, so coming up with realistic and accurate goals is not easy. I kind of expect that things are going to get pushed back fairly often. However, whenever it starts becoming evident to the team that the original estimate can no longer be met, it would be a great idea for the core team to actually communicate that information and revise the estimate proactively, instead of saying nothing, waiting for the date to pass and for anxious investors to start asking questions. (*Ahemcharlie*)
    Having a dedicated communications coordinator might indeed help -- not for stuff like official press releases but more for investor/community relations with core.

    The core team quarterly conference call has been a huge step in the right direction, because regardless of any other happenings or radio silence, recently we have gotten to have a full status update, answered questions, and a reset of expectations every 3 months. Managing expectations is huge.
    @kot -- is there going to be a conference call scheduled for Q3? Last one for Q2 was a little under 3 months ago so maybe it's not quite overdue yet, but soon ;)
     
    #16 TroyDASH, Oct 8, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
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  17. kot

    kot Well-known Member
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    Hey Guys,
    We are doing a lot of changes internally. New DIPs process defined by Andy made us to re-think the way we are going to work on the Evolution development. We are also working on the communication and reporting, so it is comprehensive and clear.
    The basic plan is to finalise current version of DIPs by the middle of November and then we will adopt it to the roadmap and re-work project plans. When it is done, I will make sure that it is communicated, so everyone is on the same page.

    PS. Last months we are traveling very intensively, and I am aware that the communication became irregular. This will be addressed as well (probably by hiring a person who will be collecting all of the status info and sharing with the community)
     
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  18. Tony Dinoxxo

    Tony Dinoxxo New Member

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    a classic example, the wording of the conference was "major integrations announcements"
     
  19. codablock

    codablock Official Dash Dev
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    I'm in software development since about 15 years, and one of the most important things I learned is: Never give too precise estimates, and this gets more and more important as further your estimates go into the future. This is because software development is not only difficult, but most importantly: it's extremely complex. And something being only difficult or being complex are two very different things.

    To give precise estimates, you need to know in advance which problems you'd have to solve, and you need to know exactly how you'll solve them (and thus how long it takes). You also have to know which unexpected problems need to be solved, which is simply impossible. You need to know the "unknown unknowns".

    Back to difficult vs complex. Building a house is difficult and it's time and resource consuming. But we've built millions of houses already. We know exactly what is needed, what takes how many days, how many people are needed, what could go wrong, how to fix it if it goes wrong, and so on. Even though every house is different, we still know it needs walls, floors, a roof, and so on. Only the parameters change (number of walls, size of the rooms, which type of roof). We still have some things which we can't influence, for example the weather. But that is a "known unknown", because we know it can go wrong and we can prepare for it. Building a new house is still building a house, it's always the same.

    Building (new) software however is not only difficult and time/resource consuming. It's complex. Sometimes extremely complex. Yes, we know a few things are always the same. We need a programming language, some lib/frameworks, good tools to work with all this, and so on. But, every software we build solves a completely different problem. A problem that probably never has been solved before, sometimes because no one tried before, sometimes because everyone else failed before, sometimes because no one else is actually aware of the problem that needs to be solved. While you try to solve the problem, you'll stumble across problems you were not aware before, which need to be solved before you can continue. These new problems were also probably never solved before, because no one was in that exact same situation before. You stumble across "unknown unknowns" all the time, things that no one could have taken into consideration before. Imagine you build a house and you knew rain could happen, so you prepared for the rain coming from above...and then completely unexpected, you realize that because you're not on planet earth, the rain is actually made of acid instead of water or falling horizontally instead of vertically. That's what happens in software development all the time. You can't prepare for this. Only after you've found and implemented a solution for this, you'll know how long it'd take to fix it the next time or that it even might happen.

    Dang...I wanted to write just a few sentences only :D Well...IMHO, Dash Core should not give estimates and dates which exceed the next milestone. Also, if the next milestone is months away, the estimates should be very vague. We're building something here that is so new and under-researched, it's simply impossible to estimate how long everything will take. We've got a very experienced and professional team here, which for sure can solve every problem and task that comes along, but no one knows which and how many these will be.
     
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  20. Stealth923

    Stealth923 Well-known Member
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    Some good discussion going on here - lets just hope Core gets their act together with communications before Dash becomes even bigger. Without fixing the issue, the bigger the embarrassment and trust issues will snowball. I would like Dash to become a well known brand that people can trust and at this point, @Ryan Taylor can keep making great speeches but this will have less of an effect if he doesn't follow his word on the road-map and communications about your core product.

    I would like to get a few more things off my chest:

    1) The Dash Conference itself was great in terms of networking, building morale and getting more exposure out there which I felt it exceeded my expectations. The main thing that alarmed/scared me was the lack of updates and information about Evolution. @Chuck Williams speech was great (he is an amazing orotor and great Dash brand ambassador) but the the last time we saw screenshots, proof of work or a demo of Evolution was back in November 2016 in the video below. You cannot tell me there hasn't been any progress or something changed from those screenshots in almost 1 year of work with 30+ developers you can share or demo to the world???? DAPI? DashDrive?? Not like we can see whats going on because its all in a hidden github repository, which for first mover advantage I would agree with, if there were some regular proof of work updates!!!

    2) Whats going on with business development, another black hole which @Minotaur Daniel Diaz has once again fallen off the face of the earth (wasnt at the conference) , the Core team are looking to hire a global business dev resource and no discussion of business dev at the conference and seems like everything shrouded in secrecy. Is this why Ryan could not make any integration announcements at the conference??, Is Ryan flat-out taking over doing business development instead of focusing on CEO duties???

    If we all want Dash to become the powerhouse that we are all dreaming of, we need to keep those who have the most influence accountable, transparent and on track of their promises.

    Edit: Read the progress reports from Alt 36 to see how a professional org provides monthly updates on their flagship solution, from a technical, marketing, UX/UI and business dev approach, its all there in a nice formatted PDF each month.....
     
    #20 Stealth923, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  21. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    I agree the communication between Core Team and the community is lacking somewhat lately in the following area's :

    * Daniel Diaz apparantely stopped with his current role as Business developer, without the community getting any kind of explanation. This just feeds rumors and assumptions and causes unrest. Some feedback would be nice.
    * Progress reports from Core-Team lacking (was followed-up by Kot, i trust that this gets more attention from now on)
    * Delayed update v12.2 implementation (was answered by UdjinM6 & codablock, satisfactory in my eyes .. some very important bugs were found just very recentely). I am surprised a little bit though that the translations
    are taking this long (the 12.2 update is currently still missing 3 out of 9 translations). I just hope that will not form a delaying factor on itself.
     
    #21 qwizzie, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
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  22. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    How great it's going to be 5 years from now will become a permanent vaporware pipe dream if you keep failing to handle the NOW situations. You can't keep delyaing because it's not perfect. Yet. Still. Again.

    There's always something. You can't let every little thing be an excuse to refactor the whole plan. Again. I know re-doing it later can be a pain, but this isn't the tiny project it was 3 years ago. And no doubt, there were good ideas and good reasons.

    But, it still leaves you with the problem that your CURRENT product is a fucking disaster.

    Sometimes you simply have to follow through with a plan, any plan, even if you know there's a better way; simply to do something, anything at all.

    When it was future-looking and making progress, that was forgivable.

    But, now... It's even more future-looking, and the main feature is currently disabled... Mixing change issue has a PLAN to be fixed, but it was never implemented. DASH has basically become litecoin with two kinds of mining, and the "leaders" think that the problem is not that their heads are in the clouds, but that they need to get even higher...

    It's like watching democrats slap each other on the back: "The problem is not that we're unforgivably retarded and evil, the problem is that we're still not retarded and evil enough!"

    You've got to deal with reality, not talk about how great its going to be someday in the distant future.

    A day which will never come if you don't deal with reality right now.

    Frankly, Ryan's speeches make me roll my eyes. And, it's not because I dislike him, or think he's a dick, or holding a grudge for how he backstabbed Solar and myself the same way he's doing it to yet another project in of the same sort. It's because I've learned to call BS on heady, bloviating, "our vaporware is the best vaporware" crap ages ago. It might impress those with no experience, but it's a red flag to anyone who's been around the block a few times. If you've run any business for more than 15 minutes, you've heard this crap before and it's a warning sign if ever there was one.
     
    #22 camosoul, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
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  23. dark_wanderer

    dark_wanderer Member

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    Can someone from the dev team please answer the following questions regarding the fix of InstantSend with yes/no:

    1) Has the fix been completed and qa'ed on 30 aug 2017?
    2) Is the work on the fix still in progress as of 24 sep 2017?
    3) Is the work on the fix still in progress today?

    Please be honest with the community.
     
  24. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    Already answerred here : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...uorum-exploit-method.16492/page-2#post-140905
    Lets keep questions about InstantSend and its fixes in that thread.
     
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  25. codablock

    codablock Official Dash Dev
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    @dark_wanderer The way you ask is like a lawyer questioning someone in court ;) And as we are not in court, you'll not get simple "yes/no" answers, because that's not how it works.

    1. As far as I know, the initial fix was done at that time, but not integrated into upstream source.
    2. Jain as we would say in German. Yes and no. The fix was done and it was clear that it would work. But just doing the fix by changing a formula is not all. The fix needs to be rolled out securely and properly, and the decision was made to reuse the rollout mechanism of DIP0001 (2mb blocks).
    3. See 2. The actual fix is done since a few weeks. But only when DIP0001 is finished, we can say that the work on the instant send fix is also finished, because its tied together.

    If you really are interested about all this, please read what UdjinM6 wrote on top and also what he linked to. He already gave a very good and honest answer to these questions.
     
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  26. dark_wanderer

    dark_wanderer Member

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    These questions can be answered with yes/no. Based on the answers, we can figure out the status of the fix thereby eliminating speculations and ambiguities.

    That is, the answer is yes. The fix, a change of the underlying source code, has been completed and committed into a local test branch. The fix in the form of a local binary (of dashd) has been qa'ed as of 30 August. However, the source code of the fix has not yet been integrated back into the main trunk, and has yet to be rolled out in the future along with other changes/features/bugfixes.

    That is, the answer is no. The rollout of the fix itself can be done at any point of time, it is not necessary to make any changes to the underlying source code of the fix.

    That is, the answer is no. The fix has to be rolled out, and the entire system (with all other changes) has to be qa'ed. The fix itself has not to be qa'ed.

    Status: the fix has been completed. No need to qa it. All other changes/features/bugfixes have yet to be qa'ed. Rollout date is still unknown/delayed.

    Do you agree on that?
     
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  27. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member
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    Hi @Stealth923

    The dates we give out are estimates because it's pretty hard to know the future of any release cycle especially with rolling out onto a live P2P / Crypto based software.

    Right now we have 2 releases that are running late (DashCore 12.2 upgrade to 2MB blocks and Dash CoPay Wallet launch) and most of the reason for this was the InstandSend fix that needed to go in and also the conferences last month (where many of us met and were there for a week). Both are in testing and as soon as DashCore passes QA both releases can go ahead. Unless we know the outcome of the testing in advance we don't know how long it will take to pass which is why we don't give fixed dates.

    In terms of the above schedule, the current delay will have a knock-on effect to the schedule but I would rather review next month after getting these releases out before updating the roadmap.

    In response to some other comments - 30 devs working on Evolution is not correct, currently we have 5 fulltime, and most of those started in Q1 this year. The other devs are working on pre-Evo releases right now which has delayed us, but after 12.3 release there won't be this separation.

    Also about the secrecy on Evo and not showing any demo code yet, the main reason for this is firstly that most of the work over the past year has gone into the 'backend', i.e. design and implementation on DAPI, DashDrive, and DashCore. The frontend (Chuck's team) is currently working on CoPay release, and waiting for that to build in the Evo MVP requirements to create the DAPI reference wallet (aka DashPay Wallet). The other reason is that we are working on patents for the Evo tech and if we publish any designs or code before we get patent pending then you can't get the patent awarded. And BTW the plan with these patents is to assign them either to the public domain or to the MN network (Dash Core Team is moving all IP out so its easier to fire us).

    I agree that communication is still poor and i'm sorry about that because it's in my area but working with 20+ devs I tend to prioritize that and not keep up with community news / questions. One of the solutions here is last week we just hired a fulltime PM for UdjinM6's DashCore dev team (Janusz Piasecki) to help with this area and move from Trac to our standard PM setup via JIRA - Janusz is a very experienced PM and this should help communication on work / releases in DashCore a lot, once he has onboarded i'd expect him to be available for questions from the community more regularly.

    We also actually have a large amount of things to publish on Evo ranging from around 40 DIPs to a mailing list where we discuss Dash changes to full read-access to all our JIRA projects and obviously the Evo source code and release which should really open us up and make it easier for more devs to get involved. But waiting for either Evo release or patent, whichever comes first.

    Thanks,
    Andy
     
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  28. demo

    demo Active Member

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    XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
    This is a very important governance decision. You should pay 5 dash, add a proposal in the governance system, and ask the MNOs about it.

    Will you? Do you think that 5 dash is too expensive for such a question? If you pretend that 5 dash is too expensive for you, then whats next?

    Are you are going to decide yourself (and without asking anyone else) to who the Evo tech patents belong?
     
    #28 demo, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
    demo
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  29. demo

    demo Active Member

    Joined:
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    Dash Address:
    XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
    Is there a way a non developer and non MNO to participate in a 12.2 testnet?
    I have promised to code a patch in order to allow the MNOs to vote the numbers, so I should be aware of the recent changes before starting coding it. Yeah, I know I am late in my promise, but no matter how late I am, I always keep my promises.
     
    #29 demo, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
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  30. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    Everyone can participate on Testnet, including non developers and non MNO's.
    If you are really really really anxious you can always download latest testnet binaries here :

    Windows : https://bamboo.dash.org/browse/DASHW-DEV/latestSuccessful/artifact/JOB1/gitian-win-dash-dist/
    MAC : https://bamboo.dash.org/browse/DASHM-DEV/latestSuccessful/artifact/JOB1/gitian-osx-dash-dist/
    Linux : https://bamboo.dash.org/browse/DASHL-DEV/latestSuccessful/artifact/JOB1/gitian-linux-dash-dist/
    Raspberry Pi : https://bamboo.dash.org/browse/DASHP-DEV/latestSuccessful/artifact/JOB1/gitian-RPi2-dash-dist/

    Just put testnet=1 in your dash.conf and get your tDash from here : https://test.faucet.dash.org
    Handy link : https://github.com/dashpay/dash/commits/v0.12.2.x (just compare latest commit to the Testnet wallet version to see if you are using latest commit).

    Just be aware that Testnet has not officially opened yet for v12.2 with its own thread on the Dashtalk forum, so people can not make posts yet about possible problems they find.
    I suspect the v12.2 Testnet thread with detailed instructions on how to test v12.2 on Testnet will be created soon and officially announced......
     
    #30 qwizzie, Oct 10, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
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