Retail adoption for DASH.

teamer

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Jul 22, 2014
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I think you're right...

And this is why we think out loud. The obvious isn't always obvious.

We need "BitPay of DASH" as a much broader concept, first.

I'm not sure how the community can support it tho. Should this be a DASH service itself? Will DASHers be mad to spend money into a project that is more traditionally a privatized service?

The obnoxious legalities of it seem like it would be stupid not to privatize it...
I can get all the resources to build the system A-Z, but still for it to be a legitimate company it has to be registered, and afaik in most of countries you have to deposit 100K euros or equivalent to take the license (which without no bank will partner up with you) .

apart from the deposit, the company will need a reserve to pay out the merchants (if it is supposed to be in real time like using paypal/instant SEPA transferes and so on)
and converting dash to cash through exchanges would be expensive and time consuming.

Solution for that would be (more cash) to own a chain of dash ATMs where people can buy dash (and sell?) which on it's own will make a big change in money transfer around the world (or whatever countries have those ATMs)

If anyone is up for that i can handle all the technical aspects of the project

and whenever it is a registered company ... "privatized" can be through market shares as well, dividing the income on the investors
 
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teamer

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My original idea with DASHpag.com was to provide this "bitpay like" service. But as I lack of relevant coding knowledge (and funds to hire a coder) I decided to keep the service as a "cryptocurrencies adoption consulting" for the moment.
i had drkipn.com (closed now) which provided IPN service (like paypal, to notify websites when a payment for a specific product has been paid for) whoch could easily be converted to something like bitpay, I had to shut it down because no one used it (except for the testnet faucet which there are many more now)

As i said in the previous post, i can handle all the technical things, from thewebsite to the ATMs and even automated coffee machines / washin machines ...etc
 
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Solarminer

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As for an exchange, I am wondering if we had 100 exchanges that were owned by no single person or group. If any one gets in a regulatory battle it closes and another starts. I think having a single site will make for an easy target. How hard would it be to make something like coinffeine for dash? I think we should look at this like a user to user $ transfer with a dash to dash transfer. No central wallets to attack. Use a rating system to keep everyone honest.
 
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raganius

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As for an exchange, I am wondering if we had 100 exchanges that were owned by no single person or group. If any one gets in a regulatory battle it closes and another starts. I think having a single site will make for an easy target. How hard would it be to make something like coinffeine for dash? I think we should look at this like a user to user $ transfer with a dash to dash transfer. No central wallets to attack. Use a rating system to keep everyone honest.
Yes, a decentralised "coinffeine-like" DASH exchange + a reputation system are also very important items for the community to work on.

Other DASH serious issues that need solutions from the community (and it's not off topic), that are worrying me most now are:

The hashrate distribution problem: https://dashtalk.org/threads/51-hashrate-coinmine-pl.5860
Despite my poor technological knowledge, I dare say that, having most of the hashrate concentrated in the hands of a "single entity" (or at least few players) is a serious problem that hurts badly DASH value as a cryptocurrency. It is important to notice that the same miners "causing" the problem are hurting their own investment.

The liquidity of the currency problem: https://dashtalk.org/threads/price-discussion-thread.6111
I am not an economist, so I might be speaking rubbish, but I perceive the lack of liquidity as an important factor to explain the undesired price movement of DASH in the exchanges. A problem aggravated by its apparent concentration (again) in the hands of a "single entity" (or at least few players), which movements do hurt a lot DASH value as a cryptocurrency. Again, these same players "causing" the problem are also hurting their own investment.

These are interlinked problems, one feeding the other. And the more these problems last they will grow in seriousness. Without these solutions, ASAP, DASH is endangered :(

Just to clear things about my opinions, I don't believe in communism and forced "distribution" of wealth or anything, and I know that the "healthy and free market" will adjust and find equilibrium, after all (for example, in theory, a smart investor will always avoid hurting its own investment). But now is the moment we will see how healthy and strong DASH is (and how smart are our miners and investors).

I am sorry if it sounds unpleasant for the community (and I hope I am wrong). But these are my current concerns. I love DASH, and I hope the community see them with the seriousness that these solutions deserve.

IMO, the solution is in a serious hard work pro DASH spreading, i.e. attraction of new users and merchant adoption.
 
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Solarminer

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raganius,
Coinmine has a 0% fee right now, if we have them raise their fee that hash concentration would go down. We could also fine pools larger than 50% with a 2% fee and have that go to masternodes. A better solution might be to give an extra 2% to p2pool nodes. I think the actually number for concern is 66% and even then, it is only slighty more profitable for a pool to game the system for fees.

The big question is, Would a pool want to harm the DASH network? If they mess with the network, they loose their chance for long term income.

As for your comment about liquidity, the fiat money system is highly leveraged with debt. Once that debt is no longer trusted there will be NO liquidity in the fiat system. I see that as the time Dash will take off. Dash is credit based and will be trusted. Distribution will naturally rise as the value increases. The key is to be the go to currency when the SHTF.
 
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camosoul

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Lots of good points being raised...

I think they still point to DASH needing to drive diversity and liquidity through it's features. InstantX makes it useable! This is where all other cryptos fail, and they reason that BTC and all it's clones have become bogged down in bagholder/ouija board trading. Over time, the whole concept of cryptocurrency has neglected to be a currency because it's really not good for anything but riding waves on a chart.

I wonder if we could make a Bribe Proposal of sorts. Pay an existing entity that already does payments for BTC and/or a few altcoins, to create DASH service? Maybe even BitPay? So far the market has been driven by factors that DASH is intentionally not doing. We can't expect it to be picked-up by the same factors when they don't work, and as raganius pointed out, are even self-defeating. DASH is a different kind of thing, and we're expecting the same-old to work. I think we should display the effectiveness of the self-governance function and IX simultaneously...

Existing entities are driven by the need for their service to be profitable. If we pay them to create it and it just sits there, there's no loss to them. Maybe some kind of maintenance fee during the initial "nobody's using it" phase. I can't pound the nails without the hammer. With no hammer, there's no reason for nails to exist. We've seen what happens when you create nails; the currency stops being a currency and it's nothing but a pump/dump speculative investment fraught with endless scamming and trolling as the bagholders trade their worthless crap and only the exchanges really win... Then they get rid of your coin when it's stable because they're not making any money on it. When you understand that the popularity of coins on an exchange are actually signs of instability, you realize the truth of this situation. DASH is a victim of it's own success. It's like trying to sell health food to heroin addicts.

The hardware, if even needed at that point, would make itself. Retail adoption would become a market vacuum in need of filling, instead a chore of pushing wet spaghetti up a hill with your nose.

We have the ability to do this from the back end. No, it's not how things have been done in crypto. But for a very good reason; DASH is different from other cryptos. It isn't desired by that community, the hives (exchanges) don't want it because it's too stable to make profit as a speculation. It's more fit to be a currency, and that whole concept has been forgotten.

Availability, liquidity, etc... This is driven by consumer desire. Why did I buy a OnePlus One instead of an iPhone? It's the consumer end. Make the currency useful. We've done that to the point that we're becoming outcasts from the dope den of crypto. We should realize why and capitalize on it instead of being sad that our fish has failed to climb a tree. It's a fish! It's not ever going to be good at climbing trees!

We need to put it in the water, and we do that by making it available. BTC is really not available. None of crypt is available because it's not instantaneous from the consumer perspective. Debit cards look that way from the consumers' side. Cash looks that way from the consumers' side. DASH can look that way from the consumers' side if it makes itself available in a way that no other crypto ever has. All we need is the payment acceptance system.

The barrier there is the compliance and capital layout. I think that forming out own corporation and doing it ourselves should be on the table, but only as a last resort. We should approach existing crypto payment handlers, offer them payment and a dev that's already up to speed that can bring theirs up to speed on dealing with IX. Let this dev become kind of the inside man with their organization that assures it all goes smoothly for THEM. Again, this is another step on the path we were previously looking at as a huge bite all at once. The inside man thing is still a great idea, but put him into the payment processor, not the retailer. Does VISA have an inside man at Wal Mart? No. But they still accept Visa's payments, right? Maybe we have a Pi or VPS "at" BitPay's host that handles DASH/IX specifically? VPS, obviously... Hardware might be nothing but a convenience if NCR will make a plugin... I saw an NCR field service guy working on a Wal Mart cash register at 2am when I went shopping a few days ago... This stuff is out-sourced guys... If NCR had it, then any retailer supported by NCR (pretty much all of them) would have instant access to accepting DASH.

I was originally seeing it from the angle with which I had experience, and ffrom the little guy perspective; because I am and have been both of those. My ideas were not as directly useful as originally thought, but there's still a place in the new angle that DASH acceptance has to be considered from. DASH is not like other crypto currencies. We preach it, but we've failed to act upon it. It's not just words to say to get people to look at us. It really is the truth and the new budget system gives us a chance to prove it by using IX as our in, instead of the usual approach that won't ever work because, duh, DASH is not like other cryptos.

Bottom line: Put an inside man at a place like BitPay to create a branch service specifically for handling the uniqueness of DASH. DASH is different, they're not going to pick it up and run with it themselves. This could be what breaks open not just DASH adoptions, but crypto adoption as a whole... Satoshi said BTC was an experiment. Evan had the vision to see what the smart money already saw as the flaws in "traditional" crypto, but beyond that, he had the skill to actually do somwthing about it. That's why the smart money is already here, and the people capable of this conversation have found this thread. This is what happens next. We're so close... This is the weak section of the damn that won't quite break becssue pressure stopped building (everyone turned crypto into day-trading meth and forgot to make it a currency). The lessons have been learned. We need to poke the hole and it'll erode on it's own from there.

DASH is built to be the thing through which adoption of crypto reaches the non-crypto people. Our volume on exchanges is not a sign of failure, but that we're not good at being part of what's wrong. I have unique perspective in making that statement, because it's the very reason I am an outcast myself; I suck at being crap. Crap is what's normal. Look at what crypto has become, we don't even call it cryptocurrency anymore... It's just crypto. A bunch of bagholders trading bags as the exchanges take a cut... DASH sucks for this. Which is why we need to be doing something else. Even if it's wrong. Nothing is the worst thing you can ever do. And we've not done one damn thing with DASH. Drug addicts want drugs, we're a Teenage Morman Choir... We don't belong in the places where the addicts go, and they don't really want us anyway...

"I can't wait for an Evangelical/Jehova's Witness to come knock on my door so I can join their religion!" said nobody, ever.

"I can have a card that's just like a credit card, but I don't need good credit, don't pay interest, and it comes right out of my bank account? Hells yeah! Sign me up for a Debit Card!" says pretty much everyone.

"Cash that can't be stolen from me, can't be seized, can't be inflated, can't be spied on, lives in my mobile device and computer, can be secured proportional to my willingness to learn how, has no fees, no middle men, transfers instantly, forcibly removes coercive and corrupt authorities from any aspect of controlling it or you...." Holy fucking shit man! Where has this been?!?! Sign me up, no wait, I don't even have to sigh up? It's truly 100% up to me? Fuck yeah, get me some DASH!
 
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TaoOfSatoshi

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Lots of good points being raised...

I think they still point to DASH needing to drive diversity and liquidity through it's features. InstantX makes it useable! This is where all other cryptos fail, and they reason that BTC and all it's clones have become bogged down in bagholder/ouija board trading. Over time, the whole concept of cryptocurrency has neglected to be a currency because it's really not good for anything but riding waves on a chart.

I wonder if we could make a Bribe Proposal of sorts. Pay an existing entity that already does payments for BTC and/or a few altcoins, to create DASH service? Maybe even BitPay? So far the market has been driven by factors that DASH is intentionally not doing. We can't expect it to be picked-up by the same factors when they don't work, and as raganius pointed out, are even self-defeating. DASH is a different kind of thing, and we're expecting the same-old to work. I think we should display the effectiveness of the self-governance function and IX simultaneously...

Existing entities are driven by the need for their service to be profitable. If we pay them to create it and it just sits there, there's no loss to them. Maybe some kind of maintenance fee during the initial "nobody's using it" phase. I can't pound the nails without the hammer. With no hammer, there's no reason for nails to exist. We've seen what happens when you create nails; the currency stops being a currency and it's nothing but a pump/dump speculative investment fraught with endless scamming and trolling as the bagholders trade their worthless crap and only the exchanges really win... Then they get rid of your coin when it's stable because they're not making any money on it. When you understand that the popularity of coins on an exchange are actually signs of instability, you realize the truth of this situation. DASH is a victim of it's own success. It's like trying to sell health food to heroin addicts.

The hardware, if even needed at that point, would make itself. Retail adoption would become a market vacuum in need of filling, instead a chore of pushing wet spaghetti up a hill with your nose.

We have the ability to do this from the back end. No, it's not how things have been done in crypto. But for a very good reason; DASH is different from other cryptos. It isn't desired by that community, the hives (exchanges) don't want it because it's too stable to make profit as a speculation. It's more fit to be a currency, and that whole concept has been forgotten.

Availability, liquidity, etc... This is driven by consumer desire. Why did I buy a OnePlus One instead of an iPhone? It's the consumer end. Make the currency useful. We've done that to the point that we're becoming outcasts from the dope den of crypto. We should realize why and capitalize on it instead of being sad that our fish has failed to climb a tree. It's a fish! It's not ever going to be good at climbing trees!

We need to put it in the water, and we do that by making it available. BTC is really not available. None of crypt is available because it's not instantaneous from the consumer perspective. Debit cards look that way from the consumers' side. Cash looks that way from the consumers' side. DASH can look that way from the consumers' side if it makes itself available in a way that no other crypto ever has. All we need is the payment acceptance system.

The barrier there is the compliance and capital layout. I think that forming out own corporation and doing it ourselves should be on the table, but only as a last resort. We should approach existing crypto payment handlers, offer them payment and a dev that's already up to speed that can bring theirs up to speed on dealing with IX. Let this dev become kind of the inside man with their organization that assures it all goes smoothly for THEM. Again, this is another step on the path we were previously looking at as a huge bite all at once. The inside man thing is still a great idea, but put him into the payment processor, not the retailer. Does VISA have an inside man at Wal Mart? No. But they still accept Visa's payments, right? Maybe we have a Pi or VPS "at" BitPay's host that handles DASH/IX specifically? VPS, obviously... Hardware might be nothing but a convenience if NCR will make a plugin... I saw an NCR field service guy working on a Wal Mart cash register at 2am when I went shopping a few days ago... This stuff is out-sourced guys... If NCR had it, then any retailer supported by NCR (pretty much all of them) would have instant access to accepting DASH.

I was originally seeing it from the angle with which I had experience, and ffrom the little guy perspective; because I am and have been both of those. My ideas were not as directly useful as originally thought, but there's still a place in the new angle that DASH acceptance has to be considered from. DASH is not like other crypto currencies. We preach it, but we've failed to act upon it. It's not just words to say to get people to look at us. It really is the truth and the new budget system gives us a chance to prove it by using IX as our in, instead of the usual approach that won't ever work because, duh, DASH is not like other cryptos.

Bottom line: Put an inside man at a place like BitPay to create a branch service specifically for handling the uniqueness of DASH. DASH is different, they're not going to pick it up and run with it themselves. This could be what breaks open not just DASH adoptions, but crypto adoption as a whole... Satoshi said BTC was an experiment. Evan had the vision to see what the smart money already saw as the flaws in "traditional" crypto, but beyond that, he had the skill to actually do somwthing about it. That's why the smart money is already here, and the people capable of this conversation have found this thread. This is what happens next. We're so close... This is the weak section of the damn that won't quite break becssue pressure stopped building (everyone turned crypto into day-trading meth and forgot to make it a currency). The lessons have been learned. We need to poke the hole and it'll erode on it's own from there.

DASH is built to be the thing through which adoption of crypto reaches the non-crypto people. Our volume on exchanges is not a sign of failure, but that we're not good at being part of what's wrong. I have unique perspective in making that statement, because it's the very reason I am an outcast myself; I suck at being crap. Crap is what's normal. Look at what crypto has become, we don't even call it cryptocurrency anymore... It's just crypto. A bunch of bagholders trading bags as the exchanges take a cut... DASH sucks for this. Which is why we need to be doing something else. Even if it's wrong. Nothing is the worst thing you can ever do. And we've not done one damn thing with DASH. Drug addicts want drugs, we're a Teenage Morman Choir... We don't belong in the places where the addicts go, and they don't really want us anyway...

"I can't wait for an Evangelical/Jehova's Witness to come knock on my door so I can join their religion!" said nobody, ever.

"I can have a card that's just like a credit card, but I don't need good credit, don't pay interest, and it comes right out of my bank account? Hells yeah! Sign me up for a Debit Card!" says pretty much everyone.

"Cash that can't be stolen from me, can't be seized, can't be inflated, can't be spied on, lives in my mobile device and computer, can be secured proportional to my willingness to learn how, has no fees, no middle men, transfers instantly, forcibly removes coercive and corrupt authorities from any aspect of controlling it or you...." Holy fucking shit man! Where has this been?!?! Sign me up, no wait, I don't even have to sigh up? It's truly 100% up to me? Fuck yeah, get me some DASH!
I really enjoyed your read, but I can't help thinking to myself as I read it, why are you suggesting a payment processor like BitPay?

Dash will be capable (upon implenting scaling technlogies) of being its own BitPay, without the need for a specific company to handle it.

This is what separates Dash from Bitcoin. Bitcoin needs BitPay, because it's slow and can't scale. Dash (after implementation of scaling technologies} will not need any company to be a middle man. Just plug in a wallet and away you go. Businesses may need accounting companies for the transactions, but the actual transactions will be instant and secure, right out of the network.

This is the feature that we should be stressing in the future, I would not like to see a payment processor try to take the credit for Dash's genius, when it will work on its own.
 

camosoul

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Dash will be capable (upon implenting scaling technlogies) of being its own BitPay, without the need for a specific company to handle it.
Please explain this.

How will DASH put USD into a retailer's Bank Account upon an IX lock all by itself?
 
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TanteStefana

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I love all this, very exciting and timely. I just had one thought in the begining regarding gas stations, LOL. Which I know you're all beyond now, but still might be useful. What if the person buying gas "puts up" in a multi sig, more dash than they'll need to fill up, and when finished, the program itself releases the actual cost in dash to the merchant, and the change to the customer. I mean, that's what they do now. It requires a little trust in the customer, but hell, customers trust everything as it is, and if a gas station tried to steal, they'd get a bad wrap, which is bad business. Anyway, my point is, can't that just happen automatically? An automatic escrow.

I still think Camosoul has something in that we should make a mock up of a payment system, then we could take it to corporate - McDonnalds, Shell, Denny's, etc... and see if they'd be willing to implement it.with us (or whomever is running this show - Camo?) providing labor, equipment, etc... to make it work for them the way they like it and are happy with. And the funds for doing so would come from the budget system. I think Dash is mature enough today to warrant corporate attention. And by the time this is all set up at the mock up level to where it really works, Dash will be in the news everywhere (as publicity is about to start).

So yah, I'll vote for this!
 
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camosoul

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So yah, I'll vote for this!
I started this thread to determine what the show would be, or even if there would be a show... I volunteered myself under the original notions, which have shifted drastically.

We need a service very much like BitPay, possibly created by an existing entity that already has such experience, which accommodates IX. IT will require significant development beyond a copy-paste of existing systems, because IX is well outside of that envelope. With that, other things nearly build themselves. I offered my position that we should seek an existing entity that provides similar service already, instead of going it alone... But that option should still be on the table I think.
 
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TanteStefana

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Dashcurex is implementing IX. They'll be the first to fully support it. They're new, but they've run Bitcurex for a long time. But I admit, I don't know enough about them other than I'll give them a go next time I need exchange services.

Been talking to my husband about adoption, and he said gun shows was the way to go. Get people to start using Dash at gun shows and it'll open doors. I know you're into guns, and maybe you go to gun shows? Do you see this as a place for adoption? Hubby said to get those libertarians at gun shows to make it their duty to use a free monetary system! But this is off topic, just thought I'd put it out there :)

Or get the Duck Dynasty guys to look into it on one of their episodes?

We can't afford a smart phone, and I so want to try all these apps. I feel woefully incapable of participating in such discussions :(

Bitcurex and Dashcurex seem to be based in Poland and *seem* to be licensed in Europe and Poland?
 
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TaoOfSatoshi

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I had a feeling we were talking about different things. What were you meaning?
I was just pointing out that Dash would not need a payment processor for its transactions for it to be able to scale and deliver funds in a timely way. It works that way by itself, provided that the scaling technologies that Evan's envisioning pan out. But yeah, I see that we will need some entity to exchange Dash to guvpaper at the beginning.

I will vote for such a proposal too.

TanteStefana Thanks for trying out Dashcurex. A Dash-only exchange has been needed for a while and now we have it. And going to implement InstantX. I'm sure the volume will steadily increase there. I will keep bumping my post until it does!
 

TanteStefana

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The problem is that whoever services the merchants (turns their coin into guvpaper) has to be licensed. We'll probably have to work with several entities. I just don't know of one in the USA that is licensed in all states as a money transmitting service. Not for Dash. I wish we could talk Coinbase into servicing Dash, but I have a feeling they're too afraid as they're currently bending over for the guv. We're too private.

So back to.... can we create a decentralized exchange? I suspect not. Hey, here is a question?? Could we fund raise for deposits needed to become a licensed exchange in the USA and then spread out? If all we need is 100,000 dollars, AND if we could use the same $ deposit for each state (instead of another $100,000 etc... we might be able to make a Dash only exchange run by the non-profit foundation, and do it for non-profit. We'd run all the other exchanges out of business!

But probably not possible :(

TaoOfSatoshi do you know anything about them? How big are they compared to, say Bitfinex? Are they actually licensed in Europe? Actually, maybe a more practical way to do the above is to partner up with someone like Dashcurex and help them get licensed around the world with our fundraising capabilities. We could even make it a loan to be paid back to the foundation, or require they use a big % of their funds to expand around the world?

Partnerships are probably the way to go.
 
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raganius

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Before we can create decentralized exchange, I think we just add feature to let user to sell/buy DASH by location from mobile wallet.
Again, I must say that I like your suggestion. A Mycelium-like p2p mobile exchange is indeed a necessary solution. It stimulates peer to peers transactions: the logical way to go, according to the "Satoshi philosophy". At the same time this is also a powerful way to increase user adoption.

Now, in what regards merchant adoption, at this point in History we still are dependents on Bitpay-like services, until merchants are comfortable enough with not going back to "fiat paper". The fact that these point of sale (or exchanges) services must comply with government regulations is actually, from my point of view, a positive, and very important, factor. Not because I am a statist, but because such services are NOT "crypto", they are not p2p, they are not decentralised. Actually they are dangerous centralised points of failure. But still, we need them for now, and we will want them to be as safe as possible (they're a temporary solution in which merchants give up some freedom in order to win in convenience).

I love all this, very exciting and timely. I just had one thought in the begining regarding gas stations, LOL. Which I know you're all beyond now, but still might be useful. What if the person buying gas "puts up" in a multi sig, more dash than they'll need to fill up, and when finished, the program itself releases the actual cost in dash to the merchant, and the change to the customer. I mean, that's what they do now. It requires a little trust in the customer, but hell, customers trust everything as it is, and if a gas station tried to steal, they'd get a bad wrap, which is bad business. Anyway, my point is, can't that just happen automatically? An automatic escrow.
(...)
No need for trust, actually. It demands using a script creating a multisig transacton in order to turn successive miro-payments (from "A" to "B" - signed by "A") into a final resulting payment (signed by "B") published in the blockchain. More or less like this:
 
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raganius

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Dashcurex is implementing IX. They'll be the first to fully support it. (...)
(A little OT here,but...) How are they implementing IX? What can a exchange do differently in order to be considered IX friendly?

I'll repeat here my question proposed elsewhere, but unanswered, because I might not have understood well how IX works:

As far as I know, IX will work with whatever (synced) DASH wallet the receiver is using, even if the receiver's wallet is not capable of sending IX transactions. So, any exchange, for example, will receive IX transactions with as many "instant" confirmations as the IX transaction brings. The same with light wallets, mobile wallets, etc.

That's why I don't understand the idea of "this or that exchange supports IX"... unless it means the exchange has "no control" of withdrawal orders whatsoever (which, IMHO, would be a dangerous solution)

I know I might be wrong. So please, someone, help me here.

Thanks
 

TanteStefana

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As I understand it, they will allow for instant transfers to their exchange and out again. I think other exchanges are holding on to deposits for extra confirmations and not giving instant access to coins for trading. Some exchanges hold on to Bitcoin deposits for many more confirmations that is recommended (what is recommended? 6 confirmations?) In the case of merchants, this would mean instant trades to fiat after accepting dash reducing the chance of a market place change in price while waiting to convert to fiat. Just in case, and because it's so new, InstantX is suggested to be used with 1 regular confirmation (5-IX and 1-block) but locked IX transactions should be as secure as block confirmations and have not yet had any signs of double spends getting through. So certainly for regular purchases under $50, it should be plenty safe to accept payment upon IX acceptance, just like stores don't get your signature under $50 for credit card purchases.

So yah, the idea is that this exchange promises to allow for the use of IX transfers and to call it good, rather than hold on to the coin for long periods of time. Swift exchange rates should translate to less exposure to volatility for the merchant.
 
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raganius

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As I understand it, they will allow for instant transfers to their exchange and out again. I think other exchanges are holding on to deposits for extra confirmations and not giving instant access to coins for trading. Some exchanges hold on to Bitcoin deposits for many more confirmations that is recommended (what is recommended? 6 confirmations?) In the case of merchants, this would mean instant trades to fiat after accepting dash reducing the chance of a market place change in price while waiting to convert to fiat. Just in case, and because it's so new, InstantX is suggested to be used with 1 regular confirmation (5-IX and 1-block) but locked IX transactions should be as secure as block confirmations and have not yet had any signs of double spends getting through. So certainly for regular purchases under $50, it should be plenty safe to accept payment upon IX acceptance, just like stores don't get your signature under $50 for credit card purchases.

So yah, the idea is that this exchange promises to allow for the use of IX transfers and to call it good, rather than hold on to the coin for long periods of time. Swift exchange rates should translate to less exposure to volatility for the merchant.
Yes. Thank you for the explanation. But what I was not sure if I understood is if any synced DASH wallet will see the IX confirmations as regular confirmations (so that any exchange would have no reason to block this deposit any longer).

Now, in what concerns withdrawals, I believe that usually the time it takes for the withdrawal to be safely approved by the internal exchange controls in any high volume exchange would anyway be much longer than the confirmation time for any DASH transaction (being it IX or not), so IX would make no difference here.

"So certainly for regular purchases under $50, it should be plenty safe to accept payment upon IX acceptance, just like stores don't get your signature under $50 for credit card purchases."

Yes, the volume of DASH in the transaction must be taken into consideration by the merchant. If they block their clients transaction for too long for no reason, causing their clients to be unsatisfied, the competing merchants might benefit. ;)
 

TanteStefana

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Gosh, I don't know how those transactions look to an outside entity. I know they can be spent after one confirmation, but after that, I think you have to wait 6 confirmations. The IX section of the wiki is missing and really needs to be written :(
 
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Solarminer

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I see the point about a bitpay like service. The merchant needs a customer specific address and crypto amount that is immediately converted to fiat. (not possible with a distributed user to user exchange) This could be done with someone talented with the Shapeshift api and adapt it to Bitpay. Bitpay is fairly large and may not be able to adapt like a smaller company. Coinbase is tracking transactions and I hardly see a fit with using them.

These could be better options.
www.billpayforcoins.com might be open to it. They take BTC/LTC/XDG now. I have asked them to take DASH but haven't got a yes...yet.(always stay positive in sales). I used them via shapeshift and it worked without any problems.

www.bitsumo.com - pick your item and they buy it for you. I think they had some financial trouble, don't know much about them now.

www.xapo.com - they use a 4 number password for their wallets and claim to be the most secure wallet company - I don't get it. They do have a debit card based on btc.

www.bongocoin.com - they took most coins, but stopped service last year. I used them several times and they were fast and very easy to work with.

www.coinfueled.com - As for gas stations, these guys sold gas cards for BTC. Suspended service a few months ago.
 
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Solarminer

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Yes. Thank you for the explanation. But what I was not sure if I understood is if any synced DASH wallet will see the IX confirmations as regular confirmations (so that any exchange would have no reason to block this deposit any longer).

Now, in what concerns withdrawals, I believe that usually the time it takes for the withdrawal to be safely approved by the internal exchange controls in any high volume exchange would anyway be much longer than the confirmation time for any DASH transaction (being it IX or not), so IX would make no difference here.

"So certainly for regular purchases under $50, it should be plenty safe to accept payment upon IX acceptance, just like stores don't get your signature under $50 for credit card purchases."

Yes, the volume of DASH in the transaction must be taken into consideration by the merchant. If they block their clients transaction for too long for no reason, causing their clients to be unsatisfied, the competing merchants might benefit. ;)
Maybe I can clarify this a bit.
The IX transaction gets a 5x confirmation in about 4 seconds. The wallet should show 5x confirmations after a few seconds and looks like this:
Status: 5/confirmed (verified via instantx), broadcast through 10 nodes
Otherwise withtout IX you get this:
Status: 0/unconfirmed, broadcast through 7 nodes

The IX can be considered a safe transaction for most purchases or transfers. For a larger transaction, the exchange could wait for 1 transaction to lock(2.5 min on average) this into a block. Then it would have 6 confirmations which is nearly 100% safe. I was able to send out an IX deposited transaction before that 6th confirmation.

The exchange could offer a IX withdraw option for an additional transaction fee just like when you send out of your wallet. You would weight the value you are sending and speed needed to pay that fee of about 2.5 cents. 2.5cents is pretty cheap to save 12.5minutes on a large sum of money. Think of a bank wire transfer of $100,000 that takes 4 seconds and only costs 2.5 cents, amazing.
 

raganius

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Thank you for your answer.

Maybe I can clarify this a bit.
The IX transaction gets a 5x confirmation in about 4 seconds. The wallet should show 5x confirmations after a few seconds and looks like this:
Status: 5/confirmed (verified via instantx), broadcast through 10 nodes
Otherwise withtout IX you get this:
Status: 0/unconfirmed, broadcast through 7 nodes

The IX can be considered a safe transaction for most purchases or transfers. For a larger transaction, the exchange could wait for 1 transaction to lock(2.5 min on average) this into a block. Then it would have 6 confirmations which is nearly 100% safe. I was able to send out an IX deposited transaction before that 6th confirmation.
(...)
So, in this case, I can now understand that for a exchange to be "InstantX friendly" it would take adapting it's system to trust the IX mechanism and consider "5/confirmed (verified via instantx)" deposit transactions as actual transactions with 5 confirmatons, as it is justifiable, considering the eventual (if any) risks. The user's IX deposits would then indeed be instantly available for the trades.

(...)
The exchange could offer a IX withdraw option for an additional transaction fee just like when you send out of your wallet. You would weight the value you are sending and speed needed to pay that fee of about 2.5 cents. 2.5cents is pretty cheap to save 12.5minutes on a large sum of money. Think of a bank wire transfer of $100,000 that takes 4 seconds and only costs 2.5 cents, amazing.
Only here, IX might not make much difference, as I have considered above, because anyway the moment the user orders an eventual IX withdrawal (and even paying more fees for that service), that withdrawal will not be instantly approved as it will depend on the exchange checking to see if everything is fine with that withdrawal amount (to avoid errors, or being hacked, for instance).

As a similar example, once it happened to me that I made a bet in an online BTC dice game, and there was a bug that multiplied my bet several times (from some satoshis to more than 1 BTC). I contacted their support, reported the error, it was fixed (and I have even received a bounty :D, but lost everything in my next bet). Instead, I could have tried to withdraw it, but (even if it was an InstantX withdrawal) before the exchange released my payment it woud take some time to check if it was ok (lest them losing that money from the bug). So, not an instant withdrawal, strictly speaking.
 
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Solarminer

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Thank you for your answer.



So, in this case, I can now understand that for a exchange to be "InstantX friendly" it would take adapting it's system to trust the IX mechanism and consider "5/confirmed (verified via instantx)" deposit transactions as actual transactions with 5 confirmatons, as it is justifiable, considering the eventual (if any) risks. The user's IX deposits would then indeed be instantly available for the trades.



Only here, IX might not make much difference, as I have considered above, because anyway the moment the user orders an eventual IX withdrawal (and even paying more fees for that service), that withdrawal will not be instantly approved as it will depend on the exchange checking to see if everything is fine with that withdrawal amount (to avoid errors, or being hacked, for instance).

As a similar example, once it happened to me that I made a bet in an online BTC dice game, and there was a bug that multiplied my bet several times (from some satoshis to more than 1 BTC). I contacted their support, reported the error, it was fixed (and I have even received a bounty :D, but lost everything in my next bet). Instead, I could have tried to withdraw it, but (even if it was an InstantX withdrawal) before the exchange released my payment it woud take some time to check if it was ok (lest them losing that money from the bug). So, not an instant withdrawal, strictly speaking.
Not trying to split hairs here, but the IX transaction will have 5 confirmations. So if they did a check with the transaction id it would say 5 confirmations. If the exchange requires 3 confirmations for deposits, it is considered instant. If they want 6 confirmations, then you would need to wait for the next block to get the 6th.

Even if the exchange takes 10 minutes to send out your DASH. You would still need to wait 6 confirmations after that to spend your coins if you didn't do an IX transfer. So you are still saving that confirmation time. It probably doesn't matter if you are keeping your coins. But think if you tried to do an arbitrage with 2 exchanges. You send coins from one to the other and want to place a trace on the 2nd one ASAP. Or you are trading into DASH to start a masternode and need 16 confirmations before you can activate it.
 
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raganius

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Not trying to split hairs here, but the IX transaction will have 5 confirmations. So if they did a check with the transaction id it would say 5 confirmations. If the exchange requires 3 confirmations for deposits, it is considered instant. If they want 6 confirmations, then you would need to wait for the next block to get the 6th.

Even if the exchange takes 10 minutes to send out your DASH. You would still need to wait 6 confirmations after that to spend your coins if you didn't do an IX transfer. So you are still saving that confirmation time. It probably doesn't matter if you are keeping your coins. But think if you tried to do an arbitrage with 2 exchanges. You send coins from one to the other and want to place a trace on the 2nd one ASAP. Or you are trading into DASH to start a masternode and need 16 confirmations before you can activate it.
Thanks! That's exactly how I thought InstantX would work. I just wanted to be sure that I understood it correctly (so, confirming my initial opinion) ;)
 

TanteStefana

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So there is a new exchange on the block, LZF Exchange or Laissez Faire. They can legally operate in 49 states (US). Their setup is to somehow never actually touch money, but rather have the banks take care of deposits and they would be more of a service oriented company. They have an interesting marketplace setup that I frankly don't think will work so well for most traders, but who am I to say? It might work, though, if the people buying and selling in the marketplace are not traders. Traders would never want use this exchange because of the cost of pulling your orders, it's pretty high IMO.. but for those who just want to purchase crypto directly from fiat in the quickest and easiest way, and for those who want to sell off their coins asap such as merchants, it might be just the ticket!

Merchants, at least for the short term, will want to sell their dash off ASAP, and get their fiat. This exchange should have a very stable price index, one that will make the pricing of goods and services much easier. But the most important thing about this new exchange is that it accepts Dash.

Has anyone from the Dash team talked to this group? We should be setting up merchant solutions with them. They seem like just the group to get Dash into stores!
 

tungfa

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We need to get DASH working on these:
Pot Vending machines in the US !
they are making a killing these days and me rocking up with my Dash iPhone wallet, schwing, purchased right there with Dash at the machine
would be amazing ! and that scene is into this

Edit
actually you can do that already with BTC vending machines, as the iPhone wallet lets you scan BTC QR code and switches on Shapeshift (in wallet) right away