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Retail adoption for DASH.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by camosoul, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    As I accidentally began to realize while posting in the v12 announce thread...

    We're looking at adoption all wrong.

    DASH is too fancy and complicated to educate up front. Due to trolling and scamming, nobody wants to hear that their clonecoin doesn't do what they think it does due to guv propaganda used to catch dark markets. You can't reach them that way.

    But, DASH doesn't have to. I'm going to take you on my wandering mental journey, because there are ideas in it that aren't used in the final conclusion, which might be useful for other stuff.

    The general idea is to get DASH into retail establishments FIRST, then let people find out about how great it is afterwards. Most people jump into things without even looking, then get burned until they learn, or they cry about how they got burned and run away asking for guv to hold their hand and make it better... This has been the story of crypto. Those who stay, realize it's pretty much useless as a currency, and sit around the pump/dump scamming/trolling exchanges. This is what got DASH delisted... It's stable, like a currency, not a BS speculative scam investment of people trying to pass their empty bags around... DASH has become the odd-one-out because it's useful and stable! It's not another hit on the exchange crack pipe, and the addicts aren't interested in food...

    Let them jump into DASH because they saw a sign, and then be pleasantly surprised as they learn, instead of burned and regretting it... Lets not approach the crypto community with this. Lets approach the people who aren't addicted to the not-currency-at-all exchange crack pipe.

    I used to work in POS Support (Point of Sale). It's an ungodly mess of band-aided horseshit that never gets built into a real solution. Ever. It's part of why I swore off IT years ago. As long as it just barely works, nobody cares about fixing glaring security problems. If you had any idea how your credit and debit card data was being (mis)handled, you'd never use one again.It's basically being handed out... Most so-called "security" relies on nothing more than general public ignorance of how things work... Cash is much safer.

    I was thinking of how the hell would you reliably integrate into the mess that POS is. Most people in IT will tell you that they dread doing any POS work because it's a house of cards, at best. The only real way any retail establishment is going to let you in the door is if you can prove you won't mess up their POS house of cards. There are contracts with processors, too... Petty stuff like a logo...

    I was looking at 3 major things... Gas Stations, Fast Food, and Department Stores.

    Initially, I wrote off Gas Stations as being the hardest, because there's no way the Card Processors, which generally own the pay-at-the-pump hardware, are ever going to intentionally let a competitor in.

    Then, just as I started to think about my experience with Federated Systems Group (Macy's etc, IT division), it hit me.

    Solve the problem by ignoring the problem.

    Most gas pumps have a central controller that is either networked or RS232ed to the cash registers. Some old-school stations still have the separate machine they punch in "Pump 4, $20."

    A Raspberry Pi plugged into that machine and the Internet (or just the network adapter as the networked machines would be) could facilitate the transaction completely outside of all the rest of the POS bullshit. It could control the pump directly, just like the cashier you hand the $20 bill to, but without handling any money. InstantX -> Pump turn on. Done. We obviously need an instant conversion system, like bitpay, because retailers are still of the mindset that fiat is "the real money" and they want "real money." Bitpay does it, we could facilitate it, too. Meh, complaince... Bitpay does it, so there's a way...

    So, I came to this trying to come up with a way to make an android device interface with a cash register, but ended up bypassing it altogether. I think this is a good move because it puts a piece of hardware on the network that we can then work with to allow purchase of other items in the convenience store later on. We get into retail by bypassing the clusterfuck that POS is, and then can grow into it on a client-by-client basis. By then, we've got what we need to go after the systems where we have no choice but to integrate with the existing POS hardware. Makes the process into smaller bites instead of biting off more than we can chew.

    I thought about having devices, kiosks, etc where you go to pay, but then I realized, duh, people can just buy gas directly on their phone with a dashpay app. No hardware at the retailer's site other than the raspberry pi! Nothing to worry about breaking, vandalizing, maintenance. No real expense at all... Pis are freakin' cheap. Just stick a custom-printed sign in the front, kinda like those annoying election signs. "DASH ACCEPTED HERE - dashpay.io" and plug the Pi into their network/gas pump controller. Done. Have a google maps interface to the "DASH GAS" app... Pick the gas station, pick your pump number, pick a dollar amount, InstantX at the current conversion rate, you've paid for the gas and the pump is turned on before you even get out of the drivers' seat. The Gas Station owners are happy because they don't have to worry about being robbed, an employee handling the cash, drive-off, card fraud, counterfeit bills... Doesn't interfere with any of their current POS stuff so no worry about upsetting their POS house of cards mess... They get paid not merely instantly, but in advance! They have the "deposit" before you even open the car door. No logos or other hardware on the pumps, so no contract concerns... It's exactly what it says it is, Cash, but better. For both the payor and the payee.

    These places often have mock stores in their IT offices where they demo rollouts of new hardware and firmware updates, etc.

    We get already-deployed platforms that let us grow into the bring-it-to-the-cash-register-and-pay retail world.

    Once we're good at that, then we can go after Wal Mart, Home Depot, McDonald's...

    It would be so easy for us to cover the deployment costs, it's just a Raspberry Pi and a couple wires. I think the budget proposal system can handle that...

    The only way any of this works is with an inside sales approach. Someone with boot on the ground where they need it, who sees it their way, and gets paid by the outside source. This is probably not a job for one person, and is unlikely to be cheap... Fortunately, it's the only real expense...

    We need to avoid multiple conversions. DASH -> BTC -> FIAT is going to be too suck. It's gotta be DASH -> FIAT.

    I was looking forward to buying a sailboat and living out the rest of my life floating between sandy dots in the Caribbean living off of my masternode payments... But, I would totally do this. There are some aspects of this for which I am a shoe-in, others not so much. But I have a passion for this beyond money. If I knew for a fact that after doing this for 2 years, I would get cancer and die, I'd still do it...

    Brainstorming isn't FIFO, especially with a multi-core brain... I'm sure there's a better way to outline this. I have an 8 core 8088 for a brain, so don't think I'm bragging about it...
     
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  2. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    It's a pretty good idea with potential. Question is, why three identically titled threads? :confused:
     
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  3. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    Like the idea. I have some comments.
    #1. Cell signal/3G/4G isn't always available. Some stations still use dialup for credit cards and don't have internet connections. Easy fix would be to make sure internet and wifi is at the gas station accepting DASH.
    #2. You would need to send the exact amount of DASH for the transaction before you pump gas. Easy fix would be to overpay and then provide a return address for the change back. Or setup a credit account and just replenish your account after you pump gas.
    #3. If someone was already at your pump, you wouldn't want them to pump with your payment. Maybe add a code that you type in to verify your payment before you pump gas. - I know you are trying to get away form using existing hardware - so maybe not possible.
    #4. RS232 requires 1 set of 5 wires. I would bet some establishments are changing to CAN (2 wire interface) or just USB. Either way, should be easy to adapt a pi to work with that.
    #5. Use the GPS in your phone to get you a list of nearby gas stations to pay. I would suggest the code you enter activates the pump, like a zip code they ask with credit cards. Then you can go to any pump. - Again not easy to get away from existing hardware with the code.
    #6. For places like retail or restaurants, you could just scan a QR code on the bill and then show the cashier/waitress you paid on your phone. They don't have to check their system at all.
    #7. Shapeshift can convert automatically from DASH to BTC. Just tell it how much BTC you want and it will give you an address and amount to send. I know this isn't a direct conversion but it will work now. It is also delayed with the BTC, but might be a start for restaurants/retail or at least to get some testing going.
     
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  4. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    Tell the fat guy that owns 6 gas stations in the greater metro area that he will MAKE MONEY by not having to pay the 3-5% merchant credit card fees. Tell him that it will ELIMINATE chargebacks.
     
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  5. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    It did that when I tried to edit...

    Most have redundancy via satellite. But this is a valid point, we should make a list of requirements that must be pre-existing.

    This could be odd... I guess we could just do a "provide change address" kinda like the custom change address that the DASH client already has. My suggestion is don't pay for more than the tank holds... :p Obviously, your idea is better.

    So don't pay until it's clear. I don't swipe my card and punch in my pin and then let people go in front of me... I'd be sitting in front of the pump blocking it to anyone else's use before I paid... Just like any other payment method...

    Pi is crazy versatile with software GPIO, but it's not real time. So, there'd need to be some comms redundancy built in for blips on the CPU for such soft implementations.

    As stated above, I would suggest choosing this when you're blocking the pump with your bigass car, just like any other payment method. Why make it hard? What you're suggesting now requires hardware on each pump for the user's convenience, and that's very unlikely to happen due to the hardware already in place and BS contracts with card processors.

    It's true that the ability to extend payment range away from the pump itself allows people to make this mistake... Obviously we need a way to handle idiots, or prevent them...

    I can make a .PNG that says anything... I'd want the payment accepting establishment to have their own verification provided directly by the Pi device. Restaurants, there's an idea... When they run your card, they generally wait for it to be approved, don't they? If you were the payment accepting entity, would you want to just take someone's word for it? Isn't this supposed to be trustless?

    I can't believe I didn't think of restaurants, they're a lot more flexible... But, you can also just buy gift cards on gyft/egifter with next to no decrease in convenience. Restaurants tend not to be an immediate need like gas is. It's still a good idea and is worth pursuing, it just isn't as dramatic and fundamental...

    I'm a fan of shapeshift, but their inventory of DASH on hand is generally quite low. Waiting on shapeshift and BTC kinda defeats the concept. It also makes giving back change way more complicated... It might be workable for a proof of concept, but definitely not workable for actual deployment and use.

    I've been thinking about the pitch quite a bit... It'd be the part I'm good at... I think the major point will be that we're really just asking them for an opportunity to pilot something new and amazing that will save them a few bucks and enhance payment and money handling security.

    I think the most important parts of it will be competence, that it won't cost them anything during development, and that we're looking at it from their perspective like an inside sales rep is supposed to.

    They're going to need some kind of bookkeeping data, too.

    We need to put out feelers to an exchange that does DASH to USD... Does such a thing still exist? There will probably be a bank wire fee, which I suggest we cover until the volume is high enough that the "no fees to the credit card company" statement becomes true...
     
    #5 camosoul, Sep 8, 2015
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  6. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    https://dashcurex.com/ maybe?
     
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  7. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    I propose a cardboard software mockup. I've got a Pi that I intended to use as a media center, but it turns out that streaming from my NAS to my Chromecast is way more reliable and convenient. So, consider it donated to the cause.

    I can slap it on a breadboard with LEDs and such to impersonate a gas pump. Port-forward my router. Any python nerd wants to SSH in and work on it directly, no problem.

    We obviously don't have a gas pump or gas pump controller to work with yet, so lets get a skeltonized framework for what we can work with; DASH itself. The part that spits a command out to the gas pump controller can always be altered to suit the hardware in use. Lets not approach these people without our end of it already handled. We need to be ready to take yes for an answer when (if?) it happens.

    Lets also consider maybe making restaurants into our primary target... I'd really prefer a major chain restaurant to get volume up. The more I think about it, the more I like this... We wouldn't even need the Pi, we could use a custom android OS... "This is the thingy you let customers scan to pay you." Just about any old used phone would do the job. Restaurants have even more POS detachment, we wouldn't have to interface with a damned thing...

    I recommend a development path with overlap. We need a thingamajig that throws out an address, then monitors it for payment lock. When lock achieved, light up Green LED. Make it a tri-color LED... Yellow for "I'm just sitting here" Flashing yellow for "I'm expecting to get a payment and I'm now actively monitoring for a lock." Green for "IX has locked this shiznit!" Might want to monitor not just the local client, but something like chainz? Is that possible with IX? Red for "I suck for some unknown reason and this isn't happening."
     
    #7 camosoul, Sep 8, 2015
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  8. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Do you trust them with your bank infos? I've never heard of them...

    I'm familiar with cex.io and ghash.io, they never boned me or had a goof up back when I was mining DASH with my Neptunes... That's all I know... I never gave them any bank info, my experience was crypto only...

    Whoever we pick will have to be able to handle the DASH -> USD volume, and I'm not happy about what that could mean for downward market pressure, especially for generating a disparity of exchange rate on a low-volume exchange... From that perspective, Cryptsy looks like the only real choice...

    If we use a low-volume exchange, it could put that specific exchange's price for DASH down lower than everywhere else, and that could result in people second-guessing the amount of DASH they're paying when they look at other exchanges and wondering why it's all wonky...
     
    #8 camosoul, Sep 8, 2015
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  9. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    We can't test this on testnet because testnet is always bunked up, lacks nodes, etc... It's used for real DASH development testing, and isn't meant for this sort of thing anyway...

    I volunteer my own DASH for testing purposes. Not like it's going to take a lot.

    I've also got a Galaxy Tab 10.1 that I never use anymore.
     
    #9 camosoul, Sep 8, 2015
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  10. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Are you looking to make an official proposal to the DGBB?
     
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  11. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Eventually, just brainstorming with those who have input right now. When it congeals, if it still looks viable, I'll do it.
     
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  12. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Fantastic. Godspeed my friend. I think you're approaching this from the right angle.

    Maybe have a trial run in a high-tech jurisdiction such as San Francisco?
     
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  13. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    You mean I have to go to California? Screw that, I quit.

    :p

    Great personal sacrifices must be made...

    I'd rather pilot in a mockup. Deploy a single location, then fill that city, etc... Rollouts like this should be staged to keep any potential problem small and manageable by the one brain at the top of it. Then comes the training of (L)users, mass implementation, etc...

    I think the restaurant idea is perfect for our first software target. Looking for a depositor will be a top priority, too.

    I think rolling out in SanFran would be neat, but adds a lot of expense we don't need. Not to mention the visibility. Lets make sure it works first. Do a small deployment in bumblefuck nowhere. Then hit the tech hubs when we know we've got this. Tech hubs are demanding and unforgiving. It's gotta be flawless before you expose yourself to those people.

    DASH will be funding this right out of the blockchain, so lets not treat that like a pork barrel... I want this to win so hard that Merriam-Webster has to rewrite the definition.

    I like this idea. LEts be clear, it's not my idea. I'm willing to do it, and do my best, but taht doesn't mean someone else might not be better if they;re interested. It's probably not going to be a one man job since I'm only marginally familiar with doing python. My other Pi currently has a wingman extreme connected to it, with a bit of crappy code that reads the /dev/event interface to PWM servos, click relays, and light up LEDs... Wooo! Magic! You get one guess what I'm building with that. ;-) That's the sum total of my coding ability. So far... I've dicked around with PHP and MYSQL a bit, too. Does that count :p
     
    #13 camosoul, Sep 9, 2015
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  14. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    If we do the gas stations route, we should get a "rs232 pump controller" to test with. Tweak the code so it works properly before showing the gas station manager.

    Otherwise, for restaurants, this is pretty much just a smartphone ap on the receive end. We should have an android wallet that is close for sending already(at least for testing). Maybe the easiest way to do it would be for the restaurant to have one deposit address. Just scan a paper qr picture at the register and put the amount in. Ideally, you would want a custom address each time, but then it gets complicated for the merchant. Basically, a simple wallet to wallet transaction over android(or ios). The merchant could even just look at the dash address explorer webpage to see when the transaction clears(That wouldn't require a wallet to be sync'd up all the time)
     
  15. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    Cryptsy does DASH to Dollars too. Big Vern maybe able to setup an autoconvert deal for DASH to Dollars like he did with the alts to BTC. At least then the merchant could see their account in Dollars. To get their dollars out of Cryptsy, that may take a manual check or wire request from the merchant.
     
  16. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Absolutely. Though, it may not be appropriate to test on bought-new-hardware of every variety. If we get a gas station chain that's willing and able with their own mockup store, we'd do better to integrate with their hardware then buying our own which may or may not even be used by the people who eventually say yes to our proposal. Waste of money there... That's why I recommend we just have a breadboard pump impersonator for now and get all the code up to that point working. I think the inception of the Restaurant and Gas Station hardware and code will essentially be overlapping stuff.

    I'd want more than just an app, I'd want the OS to be very cut back and locked down. Otherwise someone is going to steal the phone. Probably an employee. There's no reason it can't show a QR with the amount embedded. A piece of paper not get mangled and stained inside of 2 hours in a restaurant... Sure... Hell, the wallet app damn near does this already.

    For a proof of concept, sure. Great way to get the ball rolling. But it'll need more before deployment.
     
  17. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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  18. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    It's usually a daily transfer or an amount-triggered transfer, so doing it like that, the merchants would be accustomed to it.

    I'm just concerned about any of this AML/KYC/BitLicense... I really don't want this to get bogged down in that ridiculous, inane bullshit.

    A lot of people have opinions about cryptsy, but we need volume to avoid being self-sabotaging.
     
  19. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Can anyone comment on this question?

    It's easy to monitor chainz for an address to show up and what the amount on it is.

    Is there any such external way to monitor an IX lock? I'd like redundancy on the ability to monitor IX locks.
     
  20. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    I was thinking restaurants have a table at the register with a glass top. Under it they have posters or whatever. Just put the QR code there. User just needs to scan and then type in the DASH amount. It also could be made into an advertisement for DASH too. Like pay for DASH now and save 2%. Then all they would need is anything that can display a webpage for that DASH address.(Pi, tablet, terminal, whatever). You would also need to add a tip, so it it isn't really that bad to manually enter in the amount.
     
  21. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Could be options, but for now, I'm just going to force myself to man up and at least write a little pseudo code, maybe google some copy-pasta for python... There's a ton of code out there for the Pi.
    Good points. There are so many directions this can go... How do we make the paper aware tho? Or, how can a device be aware of the paper? Transparently handle the exchange rate?
     
  22. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    I have done solar at grocery stores, but they are rural stores that don't even use email, so probably not good candidates for DASH. Working on a bank now, maybe there is something we can workout with them. I don't know. I kind of see the banks like the competition, but if there is a way to work with them, I have good connections with the managers and their IT guy for about 30 banks in Minnesota. Maybe there is a play for replacing wire transactions with DASH to speed up account settling. Or maybe we can do the DASH to dollar conversion through them.
     
  23. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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  24. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    For the moment, we're just creating the thingy. I'm pretty sure we don't have to worry about compliance unless we're an exchange, and we're not. Also, I don't think we have to worry about compliance since we're not actually doing anything yet...
     
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  25. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    It is really a very important goal, that of bringing merchant adoption to the DASH network.

    Our community shoud look forward to actively spread adoption as much and sooner as possible, instead of simply waiting for it to happen by itself sometime in the future: because nowadays there is a huge number of people, merchants, potential users out there, who does not even know about cryptocurrencies, and these people can enter crypto by DASH, no need of us to depend on BTC as an entrance gateway to the cryptoworld.

    But usual brick+mortar merchants (unless we are talking about the big companies) are not willing to develop their solutions in order to start accepting DASH. It is the community that must have such solutions ready, making it as simple as possible for anyone to put to use. And this thread is all about it. Great!

    One example: I have been talking to one of the owners of this Internet and cable TV provider, who happens to be a friend of mine. He loved the idea of DASH, but he could not see how they could adopt it for their services. Knowing that they send monthly invoices to their clients, the solution I have proposed was that in each of these issued invoices they would put a DASH address, along with it's respective qr-code, exclusive for that invoice, allowing that specific client to pay his monthly bill for them, using DASH. This way they could know, by monitoring the addresses, who paid which invoice, etc. He found the idea interesting, and said he is going to talk to his partners, and will invite me to meet them and talk better about it.

    The thing is: when I go to their appointment, what "ready DASH solution" will I bring them? As they are an IT-related company, it is possible that they even have the know-how to create their own solution, but what if they don't. Imagine it is, say, a grocery store... will they want the hassle of hiring a coder in order to create a tailor-made solution? I guess not.

    Of course, if those bigger companies are willing to pay for a specially made solution, it will be a great job opportunity for many, but in order that the big guys get interested in DASH we must make sure that we have as many small guys as possible in a solid merchants portfolio.

    Point of sale soutions are indeed needed, and it is necessary that ideas in this regard are supported as a priority by the community.
     
    #25 raganius, Sep 9, 2015
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  26. teamer

    teamer Active Member

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    A service like "bitpay" will be the reason dash goes retail
    the other things like the raspi fuel pump and even an app to show you where you can refuel with dash is not a big deal!

    but also you need people to have dash to be able to spend it, this is why there should be dash-ATMs (which are easy to build as well, yes with raspi too but bit expensive)
     
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  27. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    My original idea with DASHpag.com was to provide this "bitpay like" service. But as I lack of relevant coding knowledge (and funds to hire a coder) I decided to keep the service as a "cryptocurrencies adoption consulting" for the moment.
     
  28. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    The California bill is so poorly written that the State could claim whatever we come up with will fall under it's purview. Other jurisdictions might want to take a shortcut and simply copy/paste this crap or the one from NY. My point that is that these issues are worth fighting for before they get out of hand. In our spare time, that is.
     
  29. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    I think you're right...

    And this is why we think out loud. The obvious isn't always obvious.

    We need "BitPay of DASH" as a much broader concept, first.

    I'm not sure how the community can support it tho. Should this be a DASH service itself? Will DASHers be mad to spend money into a project that is more traditionally a privatized service?

    The obnoxious legalities of it seem like it would be stupid not to privatize it...
     
    #29 camosoul, Sep 9, 2015
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  30. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Well-known Member
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    Firstly, thank you camosoul for tackling the most important problem DASH is facing - the adoption. While we're all so rightfully in awe of Evan's genius and mesmerized by the fantastic efforts the whole development team is putting into this thingy, funnily enough, tech is almost an easy part, when compared to the user acquisition cost. QR based mobile to mobile or mobile to business invoicing might be a route to ponder with BitPay of DASH (DASH-pay) as the service enabling it during the first phase of adoption during which having fiat involved is a necessity.

    But a thought occurred to me - what if The Darkcoin Foundation (hmm, it has not changed it name and is still linking to Darkcoin sites), a not-for-profit, would be the developer / owner of the future DASH-Pay? It is registered under a Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(6) already anyway. So the whole project, with its open source and the Self-sustainable Decentralized Governance by Blockchain is under one, trustworthy roof. Money earned through minuscule commissions obviously goes to the Foundation's DASH address and is used as deemed needed.

    If one day DASH-pay starts making billions, the Foundation could go NYSE way and change its not-for-profit to for-profit status and allocate shares to the foundation members so no one would feel excluded from one of the possible futures. This is a far cry from now, sure, but worth pondering.

    This way or another I agree that BTC should be taken away from the equation (it can still be used to calculate DASH / Fiat conversion if needed for the start, but an users money goes from her or him to the service or a product as DASH - DASH and if a merchant / service provider wants it continues as DASH / fiat and voila!, everyone's happy.

    DASH-pay indeed feels like a conditio sine qua non for this phase. Than we can start thinking about who'd be best to adopt it and how...

    edit: but than ... http://test.faucet.masternode.io/ (check out relevant thread)

    :)
     
    #30 GreyGhost, Sep 10, 2015
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