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Proposal: Fee Reimbursement

David

Well-known member
Hello all! Most of you know me, but for those who don't, I'm David Dinkins. I do writing/editing work as part of the Core Team, and I've been a part of DASH since May 2014. I'm well known in the community, and anybody on Core Team can vouch for me.

Now that the "who" part is done, let's get to the "what." In the last couple of months, I've seen at least one proposal fee crowdsourced, and I've seen at least one potential proposer worry about whether to submit a proposal to the network due to the relatively high fee. As you know, the fee for making a proposal is 5 DASH, which at this time is about $45 and has been as high as $75 recently. That's a lot of money to put at risk in the event the network doesn't approve a proposal. I'm wondering how many people might have really good ideas but not be willing to run the risk of losing that much money in the event that the network does not approve it.

I am requesting 80 DASH in funding, to be used as follows:

60 DASH -- Whenever somebody submits a proposal that does not pass, but that achieves at least 100 net positive votes, I will reimburse them 4 DASH, which will cover most of the proposal fee, while still ensuring they have some money on the line. (I will send the DASH to the payment address specified in their budget proposal.) This funding will allow reimbursement of 15 failed budget proposals. The 100 net positive vote requirement is important--the purpose of the 5 DASH proposal fee is to prevent spam attacks against the network. Requiring 100 net positive votes will negate any chance of a spam attack occuring.

5 DASH -- Covers the fee for this proposal

Total of 65 DASH.

I will submit a report at the end of each budget cycle detailing the amounts paid to each proposal and included the tx information for each payment. I will keep all funds in a segregated account so you may check the balance at any time on the blockchain.

I realize this budget cycle ends in a few days, but I wanted to wait until the month was almost over so that I did not risk bumping any other proposals. I feel that this is a good proposal, but I didn't want to take the chance of bumping something more important off the budget.

Note: Solarminer points out that in 12.1 the proposal fee will be reduced to .33 DASH. Once the fee is reduced, I will cancel this project and send any remaining DASH to Evan's publicly known address (Core Team Payments address) for him to use at his discretion for Core Team purposes.

Any thoughts on this before I formally submit it to the network? Cheers!

EDIT: Underlined text denotes revisions to the original proposal based on feedback given.
 
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Hello all! Most of you know me, but for those who don't, I'm David Dinkins. I do writing/editing work as part of the Core Team, and I've been a part of DASH since May 2014. I'm well known in the community, and anybody on Core Team can vouch for me.

Now that the "who" part is done, let's get to the "what." In the last couple of months, I've seen at least one proposal fee crowdsourced, and I've seen at least one potential proposer worry about whether to submit a proposal to the network due to the relatively high fee. As you know, the fee for making a proposal is 5 DASH, which at this time is about $45 and has been as high as $75 recently. That's a lot of money to put at risk in the event the network doesn't approve a proposal. I'm wondering how many people might have really good ideas but not be willing to run the risk of losing that much money in the event that the network does not approve it.

I am requesting 80 DASH in funding, to be used as follows:

75 DASH -- Whenever somebody submits a proposal that does not pass, but that achieves at least 100 net positive votes, I will reimburse them the 5 DASH proposal fee. (I will send the DASH to the payment address specified in their budget proposal.) This funding will allow reimbursement of 15 failed budget proposals. The 100 net positive vote requirement is important--the purpose of the 5 DASH proposal fee is to prevent spam attacks against the network. Requiring 100 net positive votes will negate any chance of a spam attack occuring.

5 DASH -- Covers the fee for this proposal

I will submit a report at the end of each budget cycle detailing the amounts paid to each proposal and included the tx information for each payment. I will keep all funds in a segregated account so you may check the balance at any time on the blockchain.

I realize this budget cycle ends in a few days, but I wanted to wait until the month was almost over so that I did not risk bumping any other proposals. I feel that this is a good proposal, but I didn't want to take the chance of bumping something more important off the budget.

Any thoughts on this before I formally submit it to the network? Cheers!
great idea. you have my votes!
 
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That's a lot of money to put at risk in the event the network doesn't approve a proposal. I'm wondering how many people might have really good ideas but not be willing to run the risk of losing that much money in the event that the network does not approve it.
...
That's why all this time I kept saying "Please, post in Pre-Proposal subforum FIRST, discuss, get positive feedback and if you get one ONLY THEN submit your proposal to the real network". Most seems to ignore that and prefer to take a risk though and I don't see why would we want to remove that risk for proposers instead of asking them to do this simple job of communicating and explaining their idea beforehand. You for example did it the right way, thanks :)

And what's the use of "the really good idea" if it only gets 100 votes out of 4000+ and would not be approved? Maybe it's not that good after all? Or maybe proposer didn't do his homework to explain it well enough? Or maybe he wasn't convincing enough? How his idea is going to work "in the wild" if he can't convince even the most interested party - masternoders?

I truly believe in competition. Removing the risk and leaving only the reward doesn't help it imo.

Doesn't 12.1 release reduce the fee to 0.1 Dash?

yep, and I'm not 100% sure that's a good idea yet tbh, see above


To sum up: I like the intentions of bringing more ideas but I don't agree with full reimbursement for failures. Can probably work out as a temporary band-aid/proof of concept for lower fees if you reimburse say 4 DASH out of 5 for such 100+ votes ideas. If we would see increase in good ideas posted to vote that might indicate that we are moving into the right direction with that.

EDIT: correction, the new fee is set to 0.33 DASH https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/v0.12.1.x/src/governance.h#L40
 
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I truly believe in competition. Removing the risk and leaving only the reward doesn't help it imo.

+ isn't the 5 a spam protector ?
the lower the more clutter we will get ?
 
Why not doing the dynamic fee based on the price then?
If dash price > 10$ < 20$ then 4 dash fee
If dash price > 20$ < 30$ then 3 dash fee
etc...
 
Why not doing the dynamic fee based on the price then?
If dash price > 10$ < 20$ then 4 dash fee
If dash price > 20$ < 30$ then 3 dash fee
etc...

But then... isn't the danger that Dash payouts and payins become less independent of the world of fiat? I really kinda like the idea of "manually" re-adjusting the fee periodically to better reflect reality. But then you have to re-argue the manual change all the time.

Dunno.

Automating things, even if pegged to fiat, has its merits as well. Maybe peg it (associate it) to bitcoin instead... just to keep it feeling more like Dash is not utterly beholden to the world of fiat? In the end, Bitcoin *is* a settlement currency. Of course, that may even be messier.

Yeah. After going through my little exercise here, I now think it is best to automate and peg to fiat. I.e., We acknowledge the world we live in.
 
That's why all this time I kept saying "Please, post in Pre-Proposal subforum FIRST, discuss, get positive feedback and if you get one ONLY THEN submit your proposal to the real network". Most seems to ignore that and prefer to take a risk though and I don't see why would we want to remove that risk for proposers instead of asking them to do this simple job of communicating and explaining their idea beforehand. You for example did it the right way, thanks :)

And what's the use of "the really good idea" if it only gets 100 votes out of 4000+ and would not be approved? Maybe it's not that good after all? Or maybe proposer didn't do his homework to explain it well enough? Or maybe he wasn't convincing enough? How his idea is going to work "in the wild" if he can't convince even the most interested party - masternoders?

My idea is to reduce the element of uncertainty. $50 is quite a lot for some people, and there may be some who *think* they have a good idea but don't want to (or can't afford to) take a $50 risk in hoping that everybody else agrees with them. Granted that this forum is a great way for ironing out the kinks, so to speak, but there's no real way to know how the votes will go. (Many loud voices have few votes, while some quiet voices have numerous votes.)

To sum up: I like the intentions of bringing more ideas but I don't agree with full reimbursement for failures. Can probably work out as a temporary band-aid/proof of concept for lower fees if you reimburse say 4 DASH out of 5 for such 100+ votes ideas. If we would see increase in good ideas posted to vote that might indicate that we are moving into the right direction with that.

I like that idea! Consider my proposal changed.

+ isn't the 5 a spam protector ?
the lower the more clutter we will get ?

Yes, it is a protector from spam, but presumably if you get at least 100 net votes, your proposal isn't spam. It may not be very good, or at least not good enough to pass, but it isn't spam.

Doesn't 12.1 release reduce the fee to 0.1 Dash?

Good point. Any DASH remaining after the aforementioned reduction in fees will be sent to one of Evan's publicly known addresses (the Core Team Payments address) and the TX ID will be posted. He can then use those funds for any Core Team project at his discretion. I intend for everything to be 100% fully visible and auditable by everyone.
 
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It looks like there isn't enough time for this (only three days left), so I will defer it until next month, assuming there are budget funds leftover and 12.1 hasn't come out then. I definitely welcome any additional comments!
 
With this though, we would essentially be saying you should be deciding which proposals will get subsidized? It may set a precedent that all new proposals are going to start asking you for reimbursement and then there won't be enough. I actually like the cost barrier being there and agree with the original rationale for putting it there. If someone really is truly strapped for cash, and if it is just too good an opportunity to let pass by, they can always try to get sponsored or crowdfunded from the community which can be good for engagement. I think maybe it would be better for any of our volunteers and generous community members to decide who might get a fee reimbursement (risking their own money on it) rather than it being one person subsidized by the network. I can kind of see it both ways but my instinct says stick with the disincentive to waste.
 
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