Proposal: De-activate YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV

amanda_b_johnson

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Dec 22, 2015
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Dearest masternodes. You are called upon once again to wield your swords of collateral to settle a network matter. Thank you, in advance, for your time and attention.

This vote is simple and asks for no payout (well,technically it asks for 1 Dash because my wallet would not accept a command for 0 or 0.01).

The matter to be decided is whether Dash's former YouTube channel – YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV, a replica of
YouTube.com/DashOrg – ought to be de-activated.

(Here let us define that deactivation means a channel is no longer visible on YouTube – its videos will not show up in searches, nor will they be playable/embeddable to anyone but the owner, who can still view them and their license settings when he's logged in to his account.)

Network employee tungfa created YouTube.comDashOrg because the original (DarkcoinTV) had copyright violations against it, and he believed it was in jeopardy. This strategy, though noble in its intent, is unfortunately foolish from any kind of marketing perspective, because it:

A) Causes confusion for new visitors who might be searching for us
B) Splits view counts (making less for each)
C) Splits subscribership (making less for each)

These three things make us look bad. Like we're not the $51 million+ network that we are. A market cap that size is certainly capable of maintaining a professional-looking presence on YouTube.

If you vote YES, you express a desire to de-active https://YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV,enabling us to move forward with copyright strike-free replica https://YouTube.com/DashOrg and give ourselves the best shot at making a good impression on potential customers

If you vote NO, you express a desire to leave https://YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV visible and searchable, knowing that at any point in the future, potential Dash customers may land upon it and wonder what the hell they're looking at – maybe they should try Ethereum, instead? They have just one channel, and it's not confusing.

'Yes' MANUALLY from wallet:
(dash-cli mnbudget vote-many 84dbe4421006991021dbba27a548e391e747027f17e4770e760e54a96ecc3f3c yes)

'No' MANUALLY from wallet:
(dash-cli mnbudget vote-many 84dbe4421006991021dbba27a548e391e747027f17e4770e760e54a96ecc3f3c no)

Thank you.
 
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tungfa

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As discuss in the other thread
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/a-call-for-tungfa-to-heed-the-masternodes-vote.9126/
there are many more (better) solutions to deal with https://YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV than just erasing it !

The new channel (https://YouTube.com/DashOrg) was created due to copyright strikes we received.
(not our fought, but YT is super paranoid anything copyright related so you pretty much have no chance is proving your right doing)
we had 2 copyright strikes already , 1 more and they will have shut us down (without warning)
Safety first, we created a second YT channel. (DashOrg)
The old channel has DarkTV as a name, as i remember you can only change a Channel name once, so that was stuck with that name, so the new Channel DashOrg is updated in naming and corporate identity (+we used that move to update all video graphics)

in my believe , erasing it would be a big mistake as the links associated with that channel have been shared far far around on the internet (english, but specially in Russian and multiple other languages). We are still having a ton of new comments and views on the old "Dash: What is Dash? = P15E10 " + other videos
Erasing the old YT channel will kill all links (obviously) with it, we worked very hard to share these links all over the internet, they are used in 'old' publications and articles, OP's of threads, webpages, forums and all over the shop. We have no idea where (obviously) so we will not be able to change them. The idea always was to keep the old YT open (or even better hidden) that the links stay live, even though we migrated to another channel.
Why kill them, if we can just simply hide the channel and keep the links alive ?
(alex-ru pointed the hiding option out here https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dashs-very-own-youtube-show.9107/#post-96294 )
Shouldn't we use that old YT to "migrate" people to the New Channel ? (that is what we are trying now with the migrate video)
Killing it and starting new is definitely easier, but would be a huge loss, as we have 950 subscribers already (i know in the YT world that is not much/ but for us it is).

The old channel now has "We migrated / Please follow us to..." video posted all over (Tx to alex ru), we had the idea of changing all descriptions of videos to "We migrated / Please follow us to...", i am answering since weeks to all comments with "We migrated / Please follow us to..."
(i would suggest to set all videos to private except the "Please Migrate' one- that still watched people from old links but tells them in channel and description where to find us now)

+ GG made some great suggestions how to proceed in other ways
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...d-the-masternodes-vote.9126/page-2#post-96564

Please do NOT erase it
lets use the old channel to migrate the 950 subscribers and promote the New channel

PS:
i think it is unfortunate that we could not just have a conversation about this "issue", in my mind we could come up easily with a solution together, for all of us without involving the Network and a vote.
 
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rustycase

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Sure... just hide it from new public view... users of old links could view it and those resources, (historical archives), would not be lost.
The newest and best should not have competition from within, though.
There should be a banner on that prior site directing everyone to the new site.
All told, a great compromise !
Best
rc
 
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demo

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DarkoinTV youtube channel is a property that belongs to tungfa. Mastenode owners are not be allowed to vote asking for this property to be confiscated.

This is not democracy. This is not even capitalism. If you vote for another property that do not belongs to you to be confiscated, and if you apply this vote by force (direct or indirect), this is imperialism.

If you dont like DarkoinTv youtube channel and you want this to be deleted, you should BUY it from tungfa.

So a vote is needed, a vote using numbers. How much dash coins masternode owners give to tungfa in order to buy darkoinTV from him. (and then delete it)?

An amount should be voted using numerical voting, and if tungfa agrees with the voted amount, then he will sell this youtube channel to the masternode owners, and then masternode owners will be able to do to that channel whatever they want.

If tungfa does not agree with the proposed amount, then masternode owners should raise the amount of dash, until tungfa agrees. This is the correct thing to be done. Voting in order to confiscate tungfa's property is not a moral thing.
 
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TheDashGuy

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Just kill this diseased thread please. It's going to turn into another 20 pager I feel like...
 

tungfa

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DarkoinTV youtube channel is a property that belongs to tungfa. Mastenode owners are not be allowed to vote asking for this property to be confiscated.

This is not democracy. This is not even capitalism. If you vote for another property that do not belongs to you to be confiscated, and if you apply this vote by force (direct or indirect), this is imperialism.

If you dont like DarkoinTv youtube channel and you want this to be deleted, you should BUY it from tungfa.

So a vote is needed, a vote using numbers. How much dash coins masternode owners give to tungfa in order to buy darkoinTV from him. (and then delete it)?

An amount should be voted using numerical voting, and if tungfa agrees with the voted amount, then he will sell this youtube channel to the masternode owners, and then masternode owners will be able to do to that channel whatever they want.

If tungfa does not agree with the proposed amount, then masternode owners should raise the amount of dash, until tungfa agrees. This is the correct thing to be done. Voting in order to confiscate tungfa's property is not a moral thing.

it is not my channel
all pages and channels I run are for Dash / Project and Community !
this is NOT about $
 

demo

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it is not my channel
all pages and channels I run are for Dash / Project and Community !
this is NOT about $
In that case, and if the channel does not belong to you, you should respect the decision of the majority.

De-activate YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV
Votes: 370 Yes / 115 No

You should already deactivate it, as long as the majority is 370 against 115.

So what are you waiting for? Deactivate it now, and then continue trying to convince MNs to change their mind.
 
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tungfa

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In that case, and if the channel does not belong to you, you should respect the decision of the majority.

De-activate YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV
Votes: 370 Yes / 115 No

You should already deactivate it, as long as the majority is 370 against 115.

So what are you waiting for? Deactivate it now, and then continue trying to convince MNs to change their mind.
i think you should go back to your "voting by numbers" deal
and not talk about stuff u do not understand
;)

The superblock is the final 'vote'
before that, nothing is confirmed
 

demo

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i think you should go back to your "voting by numbers" deal
and not talk about stuff u do not understand
;)

The superblock is the final 'vote'
before that, nothing is confirmed
The superblock is the final vote in case we are talking about a budget and a proposal.
This vote has nothing to do with budgets and proposals. It is a totaly different vote, that was initiated in the budget system simply because you dont have another platform dedicated to issues like that. So you dont have to wait for the superblock, and it is absurd to apply a rule that is conceived for totaly different issues (proposals and budgets), to this exceptional issue (opinion asking).

You should implement the decision even in case 2 MNs want to deactivate the channel, and 1 MN dont want that.
 
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pin0de

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I agree with tungfas post. There are links to those videos and the content must stay accessible via those links. Removing the videos would be so stupid from a marketing perspective.
This is the first proposal I am even commenting on and I voted against making that content inaccessible with all my masternodes because of the "nor will they be playable/embeddable to anyone but the owner".

Nothing wrong with hiding the channel, renaming it, advertising the new channel from the old one, but why do anything that could result in people following links to learn about DASH getting a message that the video was removed.
Can't believe how many people voted to remove the old channel.

I am also extremely happy about Amanda working for DASH and I really really liked the daily decrypt and I was so sad when it was discontinued. I hope the DASH show will be just as dynamic, cool and on the same 'level' so that even people who are not developers can follow the technical developments and new features of cryptocurrency. I also think Amanda should be allowed to talk about other altcoins, their technical innovations and news in crypto for comparison, investment advice and entertainment, it would be a bit boring if everything was only about DASH.
 

rustycase

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I like that high - spirited filly quite a bit also, yet it seems she has bolted from the gate before the gun when off...
Let's simply wait for the vote and discuss circumstances at that time.
Best
rc
 
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kot

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I guess there was some consensus reached in this and solution was agreed between interested parties.
If so, can we please delete this thread and proposal + stop exchanging more and more arguments?
 
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Super8

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I agree with tungfas post. There are links to those videos and the content must stay accessible via those links. Removing the videos would be so stupid from a marketing perspective.
This is the first proposal I am even commenting on and I voted against making that content inaccessible with all my masternodes because of the "nor will they be playable/embeddable to anyone but the owner".

Nothing wrong with hiding the channel, renaming it, advertising the new channel from the old one, but why do anything that could result in people following links to learn about DASH getting a message that the video was removed.
Can't believe how many people voted to remove the old channel.

I am also extremely happy about Amanda working for DASH and I really really liked the daily decrypt and I was so sad when it was discontinued. I hope the DASH show will be just as dynamic, cool and on the same 'level' so that even people who are not developers can follow the technical developments and new features of cryptocurrency. I also think Amanda should be allowed to talk about other altcoins, their technical innovations and news in crypto for comparison, investment advice and entertainment, it would be a bit boring if everything was only about DASH.
Yes, mentioning the crypto landscape would be appropriate and even necessary, because it reflects Amanda's previous position on the benefits of currency competition. It is awesome for all of us in the Dash community that it will become obvious to the wider world that Amanda has chosen Dash as the one to promote as her chosen and favourite crypto currency from all the available choices on offer.
 

UdjinM6

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I guess there was some consensus reached in this and solution was agreed between interested parties.
If so, can we please delete this thread and proposal + stop exchanging more and more arguments?
There is no way to delete proposal from the network other than down-vote it below -10% afaik.
Deleting the thread is also not an option imo because:
- decision isn't made until budget is finalized either you count it as Yes (yes votes > no votes, which is not how system is designed to work) or No (because right now there is not enough support for proposal to pass, because again, that's not how system is designed to work);
- this thread could be helpful for those who just saw this proposal and for historical reasons;
- we are not /r/bitcoin to censor things :cool:
 

demo

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There is no way to delete proposal from the network other than down-vote it below -10% afaik.
Deleting the thread is also not an option imo because:
- decision isn't made until budget is finalized either you count it as Yes (yes votes > no votes, which is not how system is designed to work) or No (because right now there is not enough support for proposal to pass, because again, that's not how system is designed to work);
- this thread could be helpful for those who just saw this proposal and for historical reasons;
- we are not /r/bitcoin to censor things :cool:

Is it a Yes or is it a No? You have to think carefully and decide the rules. Because this is not a budget proposal, it is a tottaly diferent kind of vote. Deleting a youtube channel is a minor case, but in the future much more important cases may occur. So you have to be prepared and decide wisely the voting rules.

IMHO polls must never expire, because the expiration date is not selected rationally. Also by letting polls to be permanent, you take into accounts the opinion of the future generations, so this is another reason why polls must never expire. So a simple rule (more yes than no) it is better to be decided. As long as the poll never expires , there is always the hope for the decision to change in case people change their mind, or in case newcomers arrive.

On the other have the votes casted into the never ending polls must expire, in the case a person dies or is absent for a long long time.

All those things have to be discussed thoroughly and to be decided carefully and accurately before the next case occurs.
 
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UdjinM6

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Is it a Yes or is it a No? You have to think carefully and decide the rules. Because this is not a budget proposal, it is a tottaly diferent kind of vote. Deleting a youtube channel is a minor case, but in the future much more important cases may occur. So you have to be prepared and decide wisely the voting rules.
Nope, I don't have to decide the rules - the rules are implemented in the system by code. There is no other "kind of vote" in the system right now, the rules are the same for everyone, like it or not. This way you don't have to assume or trust that everyone agree on some rules you just invented for this specific poll and that's basically how you reach consensus here - via rules set in code.

IMHO polls must never expire, because the expiration date is not selected rationally. Also by letting polls to be permanent, you take into accounts the opinion of the future generations, so this is another reason why polls must never expire. So a simple rule (more yes than no) it is better to be decided. As long as the poll never expires , there is always the hope for the decision to change in case people change their mind, or in case newcomers arrive.

On the other have the votes casted into the never ending polls must expire, in the case a person dies or is absent for a long long time.

All those things have to be discussed thoroughly and to be decided carefully and accurately before the next case occurs.
IMO, never expiring poll == decision is never made. I doubt if anyone would like that kind of poll to be implemented.
And again, as I already said some time ago - I don't really care about future generations of newcomers who might or might not agree with current/previous decisions of our network. They will join if they like what Dash became in the future or they will ignore it otherwise, it's that simple. We make decisions right here and right now using current rules implemented in the system. We make good decisions and we make bad decisions but we are not waiting for future generations to come and help us to decide (who are they to know better anyway? :p) Mistakes are inevitable part of any action and that's completely fine, we'll fix them eventually.
 

demo

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Nope, I don't have to decide the rules - the rules are implemented in the system by code. There is no other "kind of vote" in the system right now, the rules are the same for everyone, like it or not. This way you don't have to assume or trust that everyone agree on some rules you just invented for this specific poll and that's basically how you reach consensus here - via rules set in code.
There are no rules in dash established for opinion asking. The rules are established for budget and proposals. You want to apply wrong rules to a wrong subject. This will led to disaster, not now in this unimportant issue, but later on, on a important one.


IMO, never expiring poll == decision is never made. I doubt if anyone would like that kind of poll to be implemented.
In the never ending polls the decisions are taken instantly, as long as the yes votes remain more than the no votes. So a never ending poll means a poll that decisions are taken quickly, and of course a poll that respects the future generations.

And again, as I already said some time ago - I don't really care about future generations of newcomers who might or might not agree with current/previous decisions of our network. They will join if they like what Dash became in the future or they will ignore it otherwise, it's that simple. We make decisions right here and right now using current rules implemented in the system. We make good decisions and we make bad decisions but we are not waiting for future generations to come and help us to decide (who are they to know better anyway? :p) Mistakes are inevitable part of any action and that's completely fine, we'll fix them eventually.
The future generations will not join you if you set the rules now and you do not allow them to change them in the future. This is the root of your failure.

You dont have to wait for the future generations to come here a help you. You just set the polls to be permanent ones, you decide here and now in the case there are more yes than no. And in such a system, future generation are allowed to come and help you, as long as the polls remain permanent.

2) vote can be changed after 1 hour it was cast so no, "yes > no" means nothing in terms of decision making, it can be subverted at any time.
Lets suppose this poll was a permanent one. Whats the problem? There is none. A decision can be taken.

"yes > no" can be subverted at any time only in case yes/no votes are divided 50/50 or they are very few. But in this current case we have aprox 400 yes and 200 no. This cannot be subverted easily. This is a stable result. But even in case the result is 50/50 you can still apply the decision. The only problem is that you risk that this decision will be reverted. So the problem is not in the permanent poll, it is in the person who takes the risk to apply a decision whenever the poll is not stable yet.

And it is tottaly wrong to wait for a month . Waiting for a month is a rule that was set for budget proposals, because budget proposals are serious decisions (money decisions) so it is rational to wait. On the other hand it is tottaly stupid to wait for a whole month for minor decisions like this.

This decision is not an imporant one, this decision can be reverted (deactivate the channel, then activate it again, then deactivate it e.t.c). So it is safe to deactivate immediatly after the yes become more than the no, and activate immediatly when the no become more than the yes.

You are playing with the rules, you apply the wrong rules that are mend for budget proposals, you force MNs to wait for a whole month, simply because you want you opinion to pass against the will of the majority of the MNs.
(and you delete my messages for the same reason)
 
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UdjinM6

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@demo
1) I'm not forcing you to use proposals for polls - you can do if you want. And if you do you must follow the rules or results mean nothing otherwise.
2) vote can be changed after 1 hour it was cast so no, "yes > no" means nothing in terms of decision making, it can be subverted at any time.
3) go ask bitcoin to change some rules like increase 21mln coins to 21trln coins so that future generations had their share and come back when you succeed. I don't care what future generations think but yet they might agree with me when they come or they might disagree and change the rules. I don't see any issue with that.

We are completely offtopic with that btw, so let's stop it here. I will delete any further posts discussing general poll ideas instead of actual thread topic which is de-activation of darkcoin-tv youtube channel. No offense.
 

rustycase

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I guess there was some consensus reached in this and solution was agreed between interested parties.
If so, can we please delete this thread and proposal + stop exchanging more and more arguments?
I disagree, kot.

Activity in this thread will fade as it becomes moot.
Well, except for those with obvious learning disabilities.

If you think about it for a minute, you might see that this thread shall become part of the 'historical record' showing DASH does have an active community interested in improvement through general discussion of details.
(Yes, I'm a 'Galaxy Quest' fan.)

Best
rc
 

demo

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If you think about it for a minute, you might see that this thread shall become part of the 'historical record' showing DASH does have an active community interested in improvement through general discussion of details.
rc
Yes.
They way they deal with such a minor decisions.
The way they force all MNs to answer-vote, instead of asking as many MNs as they are interested in that issue.
The way they force MNs to wait for a whole month in order to decide this minor issue.
The way they set up a poll that is an expired one (which leads to a final decision that cannot change) instead of seting a never ending poll (which respects the opinion of the newcomers and of the future generations).
Not to mention that they delete messages in this thread.
Or to mention that this minnor decision of activation or deactivation can always be reverted, so it is perfectly safe to deactivate, and activate, and deactivate again the youtube channel even in case only 3 MNs are asking it, and until the poll result is stabilized. Because the rule is simple. As long as a decision can be reverted, and as long as the poll is permanent and future opinions are always being respected, this decision can be applied instantly even in the case only three persons are asking for it.

All this should be kept as historical record, and as a bad practice in governing using polls. Because if the core team dont like governing using polls, and they want to do whatever they like without asking anyone, then why are they asking MN's opinion? Just shut down the poll, and do whatever they want, without asking. This is much more fair attitude, instead of playing and hiding behind complex irrelevant rules (like the budget proposal voting rules) in order to transform the result to the one they like.

I am saying all this although I vote against the deactivation of the channel.
 
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UdjinM6

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@demo
The ONLY part of you post that is kind of relative to the topic of this thread is as much as this:
...
I vote against the deactivation of the channel.
Not to mention that "voting" here on forum doesn't mean that much, it's only expressing your opinion to forum readers while actual voting is done by MN owners via protocol and iirc you are not one of them and moreover you haven't bought a DASH because... reasons. I DOUBT your opinion can be weighted a lot because you need to put money where your mouth is to make people listen to you, you know.

Anyway, even if we count this piece as a relative part it's still only 47 out of 1630 symbols you wrote in this post or 0,02883435583 which is less then 3%. Yes, I consider such posts offtopic. But I'm leaving your last message here for a while just so that everybody were able to see what you are actually doing and wasn't fooled by your attempts to be a victim:
...
Not to mention that they delete messages in this thread.
...
PS. Once again, I hear your ideas that we must implement another type of poll and we need another way of voting (and I'm sure everyone else too already) so there is no need to go in circles. You are free to express yourself with even more ideas but this thread is NOT the right place to discuss them. You already have your thread about this "issue" iirc, if not - make a new one. Is this really THAT hard to understand?