Pre-Proposal: Coinfirm Trudatum

Coinfirm.io

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Register and Authenticate any type of Document, File, or Data

Dash Proposal for October Budget

v 1.0
02.10.2017

Coinfirm

For those who follow Dash, Coinfirm doesn’t need much of an introduction. But for those who don’t know us yet we can quote the words of your own Ryan Taylor (Dash Core CEO) on how - “Coinfirm offers its customers truly world-class tools to meet regulatory requirements in an easy and effective manner….expand into products and services that we haven’t been able to provide or integrate in the past. We’re super excited about this because it’s definitely a game changer in terms of what we can do moving forward.”
Idea
A lot of large companies and entities of many kinds have problems with proof of immutable stored data like documents, files, code etc. Many terms are giving to this issue such as durable medium and golden source. Currently governments in each country are creating laws and regulations around storing immutable data and resources for clients and B2B relations. These regulations are strict and old technologies have problems fulfilling the needs and requirements.

Coinfirm has solved these issues and created a solution based on blockchain with the central stage reserved for Dash’s blockchain. Trudatum (the name of the platform/solution) brings a new level of security and efficiency to users, clients and partners. Trudatum is a Registration and Verification Platform for digital content with authentication of existence and ownership of files with a chain of events structure.

First tests and pilots have been done with global companies and financial institutions such as the largest bank in Central Europe PKO Bank Polska as well as the American asset management company SEI with great success and have the commitment of multiple entities to use the platform.

The Trudatum platform is ready and will be a public website, open for all users. There are still elements and functionalities that need to be further developed. We want to add some new features, prepare a better UX, UI, and make Trudatum a global standard.

We want DASH to be one of the key blockchains where some aspects of the data are saved and spread across the network. Technically Trudatum will involve a large number of transactions on the network and a large amount of Dash used.

With Trudatum we are targeting large corporates and the established market and Dash can be the network behind it.

WHY DASH?
  • real and proactive team behind it

  • approach for large enterprises and large clients

  • quick settlement in the block and instant pay

  • one of the largest network of nodes

    1. What we have already done
  • We are after the pilot stage of development with clients with positive and promising results

  • We already have entities such as a major bank and an insurance company actively using Dash’s blockchain to register files and documents

  • We prepared the first stage of branding, UX/UI, and functionalities, below you can check some screens and examples

    2. What we want to implement in the next 7 months
  • Add the option for multisign by many users for the same file/document

  • Create the ability for document/file version control (ability to add new versions of the same file/document tied to the original and create a living chain)

  • Create the ability for document/file chains (user can track document flow process)

  • Create fully customized notification panel with live notifications in application

  • Feature for sharing files/documents in groups (for example the ability to be version controlled by multiple entities)

  • Account/Profile verification by employees or leaders of companies. For example Verified company A can verify profile B of their employee

  • After the release of Dash Evolution in Alpha mode, test Dash User Accounts as an option to log in to the Trudatum platform with their Dash User Account profile displayed as the owner after file/document verification

    4. What we offer for Dash
  • Real and scalable commercial adoption and usage with more transactions in the network.

  • Within 3 years we would like to generate 170k transactions per day and 60million transactions annually on Dash's blockchain. This will add new scale, an extra new fee to the network and mining will be more profitable while making the network more secure.

  • Lower costs for registering files/documents on the platform for users using Dash's payment method will bring more liquidity on the market.

  • Platform with API access that can be plug and play for other businesses bringing even more liquidity to the Dash market.

  • Introduce the Dash project to global financial institutions and companies as a global and secure blockchain, payment processor, and decentralized platform. Right now we are spending significant time promoting and explaining Dash to many companies.

    5. Already working with the Trudatum solution and Dash blockchain
  • PKO (The largest Central European bank)

  • Bacca (Insurance industry disruptor)

  • SEI - (Global Asset Management Co with around $700bill under management)

    6. Budget
We've believed in and supported Dash in various forms from the beginning and want to further develop this solution with you. We are making this proposal because we have the utmost faith in Dash's platform, our vision and capabilities, and the massive potential this solution holds for both Coinfirm and Dash.
 

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Coinfirm.io

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//For some reason forum detected links in this message and blocked adding this to first post.
Based on dash price 18:16 CEST 05-oct-2017 ($304,31)

Project Management
$76 800,00
Development Phase
$200 000,00
Testing
$48 000,00
Stabilization Phase
$86 400,00
Promotion and Marketing
$85 000,00
Other Costs (travel, living, hardware, software licences, etc)
$490 000,00
Contingency 5%
$31 810,00

Total Costs $1 018 010,00
Invoice 50% $493 100,00

Total Dash Contribution for Proposal in USD $493 100,00

Total Dash Contribution for Proposal in Dash 1620,38DASH
 

GrandMasterDash

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I guess it's cheaper to use than factom, right? What else differentiates this from factom? Does factom also have versioning?

Does dash get exclusivity? What is the budget, did I miss it? Thanks
 

TroyDASH

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Absolutely NO unless I understand what your business model is for this. How will this make money?

Maybe this would increase the amount of transactions on the Dash network, but how does this drive Dash adoption? How will this actually cause people to use Dash, or are you just bloating our blockchain to store data?

Is your product actually available for people to use right now? A tangible product that we can actually see for ourselves would inspire more confidence than closed tests and pilots.

It is great that you "would like to generate 170k transactions per day". What do we have to go on that would lead us to believe that it is feasible for your project actually leading to this?

You forgot to mention how much Dash you're requesting.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Absolutely NO unless I understand what your business model is for this. How will this make money?

Maybe this would increase the amount of transactions on the Dash network, but how does this drive Dash adoption? How will this actually cause people to use Dash, or are you just bloating our blockchain to store data?

Is your product actually available for people to use right now? A tangible product that we can actually see for ourselves would inspire more confidence than closed tests and pilots.

It is great that you "would like to generate 170k transactions per day". What do we have to go on that would lead us to believe that it is feasible for your project actually leading to this?

You forgot to mention how much Dash you're requesting.
While we would like dash to be "digital cash", the raw fact is, we are paid for transactions and blockchain storage. The fact they are using dash for document authentication is immaterial. And while I had my gripes with Coinfirm in the past, in this particular instance I'm rather flattered they have chosen dash instead of factom or nem (and a few others that have been tackling this application). Also, they have said they are doing instant transactions and they are working on an open API, thus increasing our bottom line.

This idea of document authentication is not going away and getting a foothold in this space is an opportunity I wouldn't want to miss. The only thing I want to see is dash exclusivity / a real commitment to keep dash at the forefront of their clients mind. For example, their clients might be digitally signing documents for a mortgage and, of course, we would want to encourage both legal fees and client payments to be made in dash. Basically upselling.
 
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Coinfirm.io

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Question1 GrandMasterDash

After our research, Trudatum ends up being the most cost effective and scalable solution with 2.5 min block time or instant send compared to for example Factom which has a minimum 10min block time. Factom also only has a MarketCap of 157M USD with a daily volume of 2M USD, which is very low compared to the huge DASH network which is with 2.3 Billion USD and 25M USD volume. So it is hard to compare the small project which Factom is with one of the Leading Blockchains (almost 15 times larger only in terms of value) as DASH is.


When it comes to it being cheaper to use, it’s less about cost and more about scale, quality, and security. For example we could have picked a cheaper blockchain than Dash’s but we believe that in the near future Dash will be used in enterprise settings and along with Dash we can offer scalable enterprise solutions.


They say they have versioning, but we’re focused on our model like not only proof of existence but also proof of ownership, where the owner can be a single entity or a group of cosigning entities, as well as versioning and file flow tracking. And this is not the end as we’re adding more functionalities and features.


Relating to differentiations, there’s quite a few and we have a different model and approach. For example, we look to directly implement this solution into major financial institutions and operating companies, just like we’re currently doing with the largest bank in Central Europe, a major Asset Management Company and an insurance company. We have a competitive advantage in this case over Factom as we directly deal with financial institutions as clients and partners through our AML/CTF Platform and sell in the Trudatum solution through those relationships as well.


When it comes to exclusivity, our main and public platform is built on Dash, all client relations we have/will have Dash will be pushed and promoted first and foremost, but if the client has their own solutions or legacy systems/relationships like private/internal blockchains, we would have to of course consider other options.


The budget is posted actually but it needs to be approved for public view by the moderator…. We don’t know why it’s not up yet. But the entire budget is 1,650 Dash segmented into monthly parts at 550 Dash each month.
 
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Coinfirm.io

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Question2 TroyDash


Basic business model is cost for file registration, we offer our clients a basic immutable per registration cost regardless of the cost for us which is hugely important for most of the clients we’re attracting as they can accurately gauge and accept the costs and scale up their usage. Verification of files is totally free.


Publicly available product will come out once the formal Dash proposal is submitted.


What you have to go on is the already thousands of test transactions we have done for our clients on Dash’s blockchain. https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/address.dws?Xh6ECf74vjGRjzUubWvzk2MJ5uReDU2aKj.htm

But most importantly the product is set for adoption by an entity that said that at the first stage they plan on registering 6million documents in the first year. That’s just one of the adopters among more such as a global asset management company. Below are the news/press links around these entities being set to use the platform.

PKO BP
https://cointelegraph.com/news/swim-or-sink-central-europes-largest-private-bank-embraces-blockchain

SEI
https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/in...ove-expensive-and-error-prone-asset-transfers


As mentioned in response to GrandMasterDash, the budget is posted actually but it needs to be approved for public view by the moderator…. We don’t know why it’s not up yet. But the entire budget is 1,650 Dash segmented into monthly parts at 550 Dash each month.


GrandMasterDash 2nd comment.


Thanks for the kind words and understanding the potential, importance, and having vision. We have been a long time supporter and partner of Dash, we know many members of the Core Team personally and are loyal to the Dash cause. As mentioned in the first comment we will have Dash as THE blockchain for this solution, but if we run into a enterprise client that has its own requirements or their own systems we won’t say no, but Dash is the de facto and go to blockchain for this platform, and that’s how we push it.


* links will be added or updated when we will have ability to post links.
 
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TheSingleton

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This sounds very interesting. I'm not sure I like that this will lead to a lot of low-value transactions that's goal is not to move funds. That said I can see value in this if a company already uses Dash for Document verification then using it as a payment system might be less of a leap.

Overall I will probably vote yes on this but it would be nice to hear the opinion of core on this. Especially in regards to if the Evolution platform might be directly usable for this.

I do have on question. What would you do in case the MasterNodes decide not to fund this?
 
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TheSingleton

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Having talked with @pablomp about this I no longer think this would be helpful for dash. The value of dash comes from providing the ability to exchange Dash/Value for other things. The transactions proposed here don't do that they pay the minimum fee to move and store data, not value/Dash. Thus these transactions don't add any value to Dash they just bloat our chain.

So I will be voting No on this and advising other MasterNodes to do the same.
 

codablock

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When explaining people why I'm for Dash, one of my arguments is always that we are focused on being cash, doing payments and being easy to use. That's what we should focus on and finish first. IMHO, everything else is not important and should be seen as nothing more then a free bonus. A 1 million $ feature/use-case is not a free bonus ;)
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Guys, the argument is not about who, how or why they are using the blockchain. If I want to send someone a micro-cent, that's my business, not anyone elses. This could of been micro-blogging or video streaming, it requires a technical solution. All we have to do is make sure it's economical to uphold these micro-transactions, regardless of whether it's Coinfirm or someone else. Maybe, for example, micro-transactions could go into an escrow accumulator. There may be other solutions.

Regarding payment for this proposal, let's try to make this decision based on the business proposition and the upselling of services. Let's leave the technical side to Core.
 

TroyDASH

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In the future I might support incentives to discourage people from taking advantage of Dash's low-or-zero fees to send micro transactions to themselves in order to store data/hashes in mass volumes for clients. It feels to me like this project conflicts with Dash's primary mission, as this inhibits our ability to offer the same low-or-zero fees for everyone else using Dash as digital cash. The adopters of this platform are not adopting Dash, they are adopting the Trudatum service which could significantly increase the load on the network with very little corresponding growth in the Dash ecosystem. Being able to pay for the service in Dash would be nice, but if I think about the ratio of new Dash transactions to new Dash users that would result from this, it doesn't seem worth it to me, and I think I would almost certainly vote NO to spending $500,000 on it.

Also wanted to reiterate @TheSingleton's question above. What would you do if the MNs decide not to fund this?
 
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GrandMasterDash

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@TroyDASH I definitely hear what you're saying but I think we need to take a long, broad, strategic perspective here, instead of applying quick fix solutions. The last thing we need is a tax on micro-transactions because we then start a very slippery slope. There are legitimate use cases for micro-transactions, including blogging, per-second billing and - perhaps more importantly - machine-to-machine payments. Any blockchain project that succeeds in those areas is also likely to be adopted for higher value transactions. Someone using a micro-transaction to unlock a car is just one step away from using it to buy water... then lunch, then clothes and so on. Rapid escalation.

And keep in mind, more than payments, the applications of authentication and province are first class examples of why we need blockchain technology. Yes, dash is a payment platform, but I repeat, any blockchain project successfully handling things like machine-to-machine payments is also a very strong contender for being adopted for higher value transactions. With dash, we like to piss all over bitcoin for it's high fees; only useful for large value transactions. In dash we are proud that the proverbial coffee transaction has the same fee as a large value transaction. This is a similar philosophy, it's one of the big reasons we got into crypto in the first place.

There are emerging technologies that are addressing the machine-to-machine economy, such as IOTA with it's Directed Acyclic Graph. Free transactions and the throughput increases with more active users. Of course, this stuff is cutting edge and IOTA has it's own unique set or problems. IOTA is yet to prove itself and I'm not ready to trust IOTA with high value transactions, but it's a 10 minutes glimpse into the future.

In my mind, this is 100% a technical problem. We might need, for example, some kind of escrow accumulator, and that would mean off-chain transactions. I don't know what the best solution is but this is clearly something Dash Labs should be aggressively addressing.

In the same way we reap the benefits of net neutrality, is the same reason we need value-neutrality. Understand, this topic is critical. Any chain that achieves true value-neutrality is likely to cross the finish line.
 

BITCOINDENMARK

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The more attention and use of dash - the better.
Question; is there a Technical problem if the hole world start using dash network for this kind of thing ? (after evolution ect.)
 

Vedran Yoweri

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I totaly understand why blockchain business would want to run on dash blockchain. they choose stability, scaling potential, professionally run, cheapest to use chain. imagine the issues for these companies if the chain would fork every 6 months. the dapi will lure lots of other businesses all without us funding them. this is being a succesful chain, we should be happy for it.

funding such business for me is only a option if there are massive profit kickbacks to the network.
 

Coinfirm.io

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In regards to some of the other comments, especially in response to TheSingleton.

We won’t bloat or clog your chain. The amount of data we’re registering is around 300bytes, even counting 10k files/doc per day only equals 2.86MB/day. The amount of data is really insignificant for any type of application so that is not a worry.

We’ve introduced Dash to two major financial institutions that are individually many times larger than the entire blockchain ecosystem put together. We feel that that is enough of a value proposition to justify this project. As mentioned, SEI by itself manages over $700 billion in assets. This also opens up the possibility for Dash to be more acceptable for other types of major implementations that fit more down the line of “transactions”, another value Coinfirm has been providing through our AML/CTF Platform as well.

When it comes to plans if this proposal doesn’t pass, we would probably change our client approach a bit from heavy and time consuming implementation but large and scalable (banks etc) to those who have a better time to revenue ratio.
 

Coinfirm.io

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I like the project, but I still want to hear more opinions about it.

I think this should be split into multiple proposals for phases.
It is split up for 3 parts ~550 Dash each, as was mentioned previously.

Are the files stored on the masternodes or the blockchain or on special servers connected to the masternodes?
Files are not stored on blockchain. We store the hash+sig which is around 300bytes transaction.
We plan adding support for files when there will be dedicated system for that (ex. Dash Drive)
 
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GrandMasterDash

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@Coinfirm.io as you can see, there is some concern about chain abuse. I'm wondering if some kind of arrangement can be made between yourselves and Core on a technical level i.e. to develop / test solutions that make things more efficient for both of us?

Also, although there is clearly scope for building relationships with these well funded entities, However, I'm wondering if you can somehow build on this / elaborate more to make your proposal more compelling / benefits more concrete?
 

TroyDASH

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In regards to some of the other comments, especially in response to TheSingleton.

We won’t bloat or clog your chain. The amount of data we’re registering is around 300bytes, even counting 10k files/doc per day only equals 2.86MB/day. The amount of data is really insignificant for any type of application so that is not a worry.

We’ve introduced Dash to two major financial institutions that are individually many times larger than the entire blockchain ecosystem put together. We feel that that is enough of a value proposition to justify this project. As mentioned, SEI by itself manages over $700 billion in assets. This also opens up the possibility for Dash to be more acceptable for other types of major implementations that fit more down the line of “transactions”, another value Coinfirm has been providing through our AML/CTF Platform as well.
*If* the amount of data being added on the blockchain is insignificant even when scaled to the level you are describing, then I'll withdraw that particular objection.

I'm still not seeing though how this would increase dash adoption. From the perspective of the big hundred-billion dollar institutions, they don't care how you're registering the documents, as long as it is cheap and they are confident that it is secure. Why would they pay for this service in dash when they are already drowning in Fiat? Throwing around those big numbers I think is misleading because I'm not understanding the connection that would make these institutions any more likely to buy dash or use dash themselves.

When it comes to plans if this proposal doesn’t pass, we would probably change our client approach a bit from heavy and time consuming implementation but large and scalable (banks etc) to those who have a better time to revenue ratio.
I don't understand what you mean by this. You are saying if you are not funded by the MNs, you would not pursue your largest potential clients (and largest revenue streams for your company), whom you have already introduced yourselves to and have done pilots with? Why would you change this, is it not profitable? If it is profitable, then maybe it would be more appropriate for you to seek out a loan, not a grant from the MNs. And if it isn't profitable then why should we fund it?
 

ampp

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No network should process transactions if they are not profitable, dash should never have transactions that are running at a loss otherwise all incentives are broken given enough time and the whole system dies. Many analysts consider transaction volume to be a core metric in value as it shows usage which is providing value. The additional cost of transactions and instant send should make master-nodes more money eventually.

Dash is a network and it should not control what runs across it, much like the internet. But should Dash fund a service that uses the Network? I consider it much like if the internet community paid to develop the web browser. More users increases the value in ways that are not seen immediately. So my opinion is a yes.

Technically, I think that every coded interaction with the dash network should be released as a open API that anyone can use to do similar projects. While we might not have a huge benefit right now it's not zero.

Besides, we will need lots of transactions to keep the hardware assisted masternodes busy.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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No network should process transactions if they are not profitable, dash should never have transactions that are running at a loss otherwise all incentives are broken given enough time and the whole system dies. Many analysts consider transaction volume to be a core metric in value as it shows usage which is providing value. The additional cost of transactions and instant send should make master-nodes more money eventually.

Dash is a network and it should not control what runs across it, much like the internet. But should Dash fund a service that uses the Network? I consider it much like if the internet community paid to develop the web browser. More users increases the value in ways that are not seen immediately. So my opinion is a yes.

Technically, I think that every coded interaction with the dash network should be released as a open API that anyone can use to do similar projects. While we might not have a huge benefit right now it's not zero.

Besides, we will need lots of transactions to keep the hardware assisted masternodes busy.
Exactly. All we need to know is, is it profitable. If not, then we must fix it. Value-neutrality rules.
 

Coinfirm.io

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@Coinfirm.io as you can see, there is some concern about chain abuse. I'm wondering if some kind of arrangement can be made between yourselves and Core on a technical level i.e. to develop / test solutions that make things more efficient for both of us?
As mentioned earlier, Trudatum won't clog or abuse the chain. Files are not stored on blockchain. We store the hash+sig which is around 300bytes transaction. We plan adding support for files when there will be dedicated system for that (ex. Dash Drive).
 
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Coinfirm.io

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*If* the amount of data being added on the blockchain is insignificant even when scaled to the level you are describing, then I'll withdraw that particular objection.

I'm still not seeing though how this would increase dash adoption. From the perspective of the big hundred-billion dollar institutions, they don't care how you're registering the documents, as long as it is cheap and they are confident that it is secure. Why would they pay for this service in dash when they are already drowning in Fiat? Throwing around those big numbers I think is misleading because I'm not understanding the connection that would make these institutions any more likely to buy dash or use dash themselves.


I don't understand what you mean by this. You are saying if you are not funded by the MNs, you would not pursue your largest potential clients (and largest revenue streams for your company), whom you have already introduced yourselves to and have done pilots with? Why would you change this, is it not profitable? If it is profitable, then maybe it would be more appropriate for you to seek out a loan, not a grant from the MNs. And if it isn't profitable then why should we fund it?
Great, one objection out of the way. Now to the others. Size of the financial institutions aside, these would be the first major implementations of Dash into the traditional economy or financial system. It is one of the long term goal of Dash to bring Dash and crypto into the mass market through commercial solutions. We’re helping make large scale commercial adoption a reality and doing it now. If that’s with micropayments, one of the unique elements Dash is supposed to provide that doesnt work very well for bitcoin for example or more regular sized transactions it shouldn’t be a concern unless it threatens the blockchain itself which it doesnt. In PR and Marketing alone it would help Dash grow in value and legitimacy within the traditional and mass commercial ecosystem as well as open up doors to it and build your brand within it.
 
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Macrochip

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Would you please verify yourself as a representative of Coinfirm? I'm just asking because the partnership was announced long before that join date. Ideally a Core Team member or moderator able to check the registration email vouches for you.
 

tungfa

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Would you please verify yourself as a representative of Coinfirm? I'm just asking because the partnership was announced long before that join date. Ideally a Core Team member or moderator able to check the registration email vouches for you.
i just spoke to jakub fijolek from confirm on Dev Slack
and yes i / he confirms it is the coinfirm team (him) posting
 
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TroyDASH

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I don't understand what you mean by this. You are saying if you are not funded by the MNs, you would not pursue your largest potential clients (and largest revenue streams for your company), whom you have already introduced yourselves to and have done pilots with? Why would you change this, is it not profitable? If it is profitable, then maybe it would be more appropriate for you to seek out a loan, not a grant from the MNs. And if it isn't profitable then why should we fund it?
Hi @Coinfirm.io - could you address this part as well? ^^
Thanks --
 

chaddb

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Getting clients of that caliber is no easy feat, that's great work.

Corporate's of that size won't do anything fast, and they will be reluctant to be 'first' in on a new technology. Being used by these company's ticks off a milestone for utilisation/integration with major firms, and can be pointed to for future deals.

If they hit 170k tx's a day is about 2 tx per second on average? That seems like it's well within the roadmap for 3 years hence (.... it would be great to see that level of utilisation).

... and they want to use Instantsend with it.

sounds great.
 
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Schnuppdog

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1. Im missing a Video here with a good overview of the projekt with faces for that kind of Dash.

2. Bringing in that kind of proposal 5 days befor voting turn ends is also not a good move.

Is nice that you talk to Core about your projekt but as a MN Onwer an non nativ english speeking person im not informed well enough to vote in this short time.

Voting no at this point

My2cents
 

solarguy

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Dear Schnuppdog,

If you don't feel you are informed enough to vote, then why would you vote? A no vote is a vote. Your strategy would only make logical sense if more than half of the proposals are bad proposals.

That's what "abstain" is for. If you're not sure, why help either side?
 
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