New Frustrations; Who’s at fault and does it even matter?

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,871
1,863
1,283
My Opinions:
The Dash Network has been frustrated with the price and ranking of our project for a very long time, and for a long time it was a mystery why we were doing so poorly. With instant transactions and chain locks making the network super secure, especially against 51% attacks, we felt our project should be valued more.

However, recently it’s been made clear that things are not going the way the community thought they were going. Apparently, there are not enough developers slowing down the delivery of Evolution, again. We knew we were short of developers but we thought that it was due to price. Now some are complaining that we hired a new head of marketing when we should have hired more developers. And hiring more developers requires generally a long on-boarding process to bring them up to speed.

It’s easy to make a scape goat of the DCG CEO. However, I feel that is slightly unfair and completely unproductive. The MNs not knowing why we were undervalued demanded more marketing, including myself, So DCG hired a marketing director.

The problem is as usual, communication and vision. I believe the DCG CEO’s vision is different from the Development community. BUT WE NEED BOTH!

Currently, people are asking for a separation of development and DCG, I’m not sure that’s necessary. However the focus of DCG definitely needs to change. It is my belief that our current CEO at DFG is misplaced. He is better used as an institutional interface person with focus on compliance and legal matters. Ryan has had amazing vision and has executed amazing structures of Dash. Who else has a core group or Investment Foundation that belongs to the network? NOBODY! It’s amazing! You can argue that it was using money that might have been better off, for the time, in development, but that’s like trying to time the stock market. I reject that argument. Figuring out exactly when to spend the money on these structures would be optimal is not humanly possible, and arguably it was done at just the right time.

In my opinion, the first step to solving our current issue is to have the current head of development take control of their budget and hiring. He understands what needs to be done, the time to onboard efficiency etc. He should present his development budget to our head of finance directly who should propose it to the network.

And for God’s sake, get a f’ing secretary for Ryan, which I’ve been advocating for at least 3 years. Ryan HAS good ideas, but I don’t believe he can focus. He needs an assistant, there is no way around that when interfacing with so many variables. I’m sure he thinks it sounds like he’s being a pompous peacock, but we have to grow above all that. He needs a f’ing secretary!!!!!
 

Geert

Member
Aug 26, 2015
259
82
88
Ryan does not need a secretary.

IMHO Ryan should resign from DCG, the DIF, and the Trust -- just walk away from the whole mess. It was a mistake to give the DAO so much power. He should then get to work on creating a fork of Dash over which the Dash DAO has no control.
 
  • Angry
Reactions: stan.distortion

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,871
1,863
1,283
I don't understand what you are saying @Geert . Who is the DAO in your terms? DCG and DIF are DAOs so ... I don't understand. Thank you.
 

Geert

Member
Aug 26, 2015
259
82
88
The problem is the DAO. The DAO is schitzo...

- We elected three trust protectors who are hostile to DCG -- the main thing they're elected to protect.
- We voted to create a slush fund for the developers who are supposed to be employed by DCG.
- Ryan tried to improve things with a proposal to have the MNOs and miners share in unspent rewards. He was immediately attacked with a wonky counter proposal, and when that counter proposal failed his enemies refused to concede and fudded his original proposal to death.

Ryan is amazing but the DAO keeps doing things to allow his enemies here to undermine him. So we have to remove the DAO. That's why a fork is necessary. In the new fork the masternodes would not vote or decide anything.
 
Last edited:
  • Angry
Reactions: stan.distortion

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,871
1,863
1,283
I don't think you have any idea what is going on @Geert. The Trust protectors are oversight, so they are not there to "protect DCG" but there to make sure DCG does what it is supposed to do. And the fact that Ryan gives himself a seat at the head of the TP table does not look good.

And what is going on? Mostly that the community is angry that we are slow to put out Dash Platform. Even now, MVP won't likely be released in 2021. I believe this argument is a little late, as I believe Ryan has already given the dev team free reign to hire and do what they need to do, it just takes time to find qualified people and get them up to speed. Incubator is frustrated that some of their projects are being dropped because platform isn't getting released.

Is this a problem with DCG devs being overly safety minded and cautious? Are we too big to take risks? Certainly we don't want to have what happened to Etherium 3 or 4 times already to happen to platform, but then again, Ethereum is still #2 despite it all.

Maybe we should be slightly more aggressive with our releases and less cautious. Are we willing to take those hits if they occur?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GrandMasterDash

Geert

Member
Aug 26, 2015
259
82
88
We have A LOT of problems that cannot be fixed without a fork...

1 - CoinJoin must go. It doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it doesn't need to be part of the protocol, and it's preventing us from being included in important services like BitPay.
2 - InstantSend cannot possibly scale and so must be abandoned as well.
3 - We should be working on removing POW so we can be a "green" coin.
4 - The first version of Evo has contact-list privacy issues and so IMHO it should not even be released to mainnet until those are resolved.
 
  • Angry
Reactions: stan.distortion

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,871
1,863
1,283
Wow, I completely disagree 75 percent with you. Though this is the first time I've heard concerns about contact list privacy. I'm not sure how it's less private than using regular methods to pay someone. Too bad nobody else wants to engage here, that's probably why I don't use this forum anymore. :(

Looks like contact lists are public (not transactions) so it's unlikely I will use them until they make privacy an option (meaning you can encrypt them with your account.)
 
Last edited:

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
2,958
1,140
1,183
The warning signs were there all along but many MNOs rejected it. For example...

- DCG rejected Dash Watch and everyone said it was okay because they are so transparent in quarterly calls.

- A couple of years ago I demanded a code / security audit of Dash Platform and Bob Carroll promised a proposal before the network within 12 months. Now we find out it was never going to happen when there are just THREE DEVS working on it.

The whole point of having a salaried full time team is to attract and retain the best minds i.e. not some hodgepodge incoherent part time thing. Apparently that never happened so my question is, WHERE THE HELL DID ALL THAT MONEY GO???

Truth is, I have been voting No on DCG for some time and then this comes along and I feel vindicated. I've long said DCG needs to be split up, that Dash Platform gets the budget and independence it deserves.

I hope DCG get the kicking they deserve later today, but I'm not proposing the loss of jobs. Move Ryan, Glen, Robert and Ernesto into corporate matters. Not sure that Ryan needs a secretary when Robert has such strong project management skills. Whoever is in charge of new hires, move them out of the way entirely. Whoever was instrumental in the development of LLMQs and Chainlocks, give them a major promotion, double their salary and their own team.
 

Geert

Member
Aug 26, 2015
259
82
88
Ryan created the Irrevocable Trust because he thought the DAO should have dominion over DCG and the rest of Dash's IP. He didn't have to do that. He invented and instantiated the DIF. And even then, the DIF was struggling until Darren asked him to come on board. Ryan was able to husband DCG's resources and keep the project moving forward even as Dash dipped below $40.

If Ryan left the project it would fall apart within six months.
 

qwizzie

Well-known Member
Aug 6, 2014
1,706
819
183
My Opinions:
The Dash Network has been frustrated with the price and ranking of our project for a very long time, and for a long time it was a mystery why we were doing so poorly. With instant transactions and chain locks making the network super secure, especially against 51% attacks, we felt our project should be valued more.
I think a lot of altcoin projects feel the same way :



It is easy during bear markets to lose sight of the bigger picture and point fingers to one person of one team being responsible for the price decline. And it is easy to get fixated on marketcap and ranking, eventhough those metrics are losing value due to the cryptospace expanding over the years with tokens projects, DeFi projects, ICO projects, stablecoins and exchange tokens and with supply itself having such a big and direct impact on marketcap (marketcap = price x supply) and ranking.

I think the DCG Quarterly Call of today should give us a clear picture where we stand with regards to releasing Dash Platform and the DashPay wallet to Mainnet this year. I would be shocked if that release suddenly gets delayed and carried over to next year, due to a lack of developers. I would be shocked and upset, if that is the case.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DAOMN

vazaki3

Member
Jul 1, 2019
276
90
88
32
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
I think a lot of altcoin projects feel the same way .
Of course they are. Because all the altcoins refuse to accept and welcome the future generations.
So the future generations ignore these old selfish altcoins, they create new coins, and thus all these old altcoins are condamned to oblivion.
I hope one day the Dash community will understand how extremely important for Dash's survival is the below:
 

vazaki3

Member
Jul 1, 2019
276
90
88
32
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
The death spiral thread is locked, but fortunately the discussion continues here.
In the meantime, I created a new poll in order to escape the dashtalk moderation. That said, @Geert you are welcome to propose your solutions and to vote for them, here (the forum is moderated by me, which means that it is almost unmoderated).

We have A LOT of problems that cannot be fixed without a fork...
1 - CoinJoin must go. It doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it doesn't need to be part of the protocol, and it's preventing us from being included in important services like BitPay.
I Disagree.
2 - InstantSend cannot possibly scale and so must be abandoned as well.
I Disagree.
3 - We should be working on removing POW so we can be a "green" coin.
Someone should investigate it.
4 - The first version of Evo has contact-list privacy issues and so IMHO it should not even be released to mainnet until those are resolved.
We should focus on more privacy.
 
Last edited:

Geert

Member
Aug 26, 2015
259
82
88
I forgot to add that we should be implementing CoinPrune so that the Dash blockchain doesn't grow forever. So here, once again, is my fantasy plan to make Dash exciting and relevant:

- Announce to the world the removal of CoinJoin from the Dash protocol and do it ASAP.
- Fund a fork of Wasabi wallet so that the CoinJoin fanatics who insist on mixing can mix trustlessly .
- Remove InstantSend and shorten the block time to one minute as a consolation. (FastPass is now "within one minute.")
- Work on a prototype of LLMQ block production.
- Implement CoinPrune so that the Dash blockchain remains small no matter how many transactions per second we ever achieve.

You're welcome.
 

vazaki3

Member
Jul 1, 2019
276
90
88
32
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
I forgot to add that we should be implementing CoinPrune so that the Dash blockchain doesn't grow forever. So here, once again, is my fantasy plan to make Dash exciting and relevant:

- Announce to the world the removal of CoinJoin from the Dash protocol and do it ASAP.
- Fund a fork of Wasabi wallet so that the CoinJoin fanatics who insist on mixing can mix trustlessly .
- Remove InstantSend and shorten the block time to one minute as a consolation. (FastPass is now "within one minute.")
- Work on a prototype of LLMQ block production.
- Implement CoinPrune so that the Dash blockchain remains small no matter how many transactions per second we ever achieve.

You're welcome.
Although you could add by yourself the proposed solution, I added it for you in order to facilitate you.

I also added my solution.
Implement a proof of individuality ( https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...ndividuality-to-be-implemented-in-dash.15946/) and a basic income ((https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...d-web-of-trust-for-dash-v2.51722/#post-227104) to all proved individuals that do not exchange their basic income to other coins, but they keep their dash or they trade by using dash.
Feel free to vote there, or to add another solution.
 
Last edited:

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
2,958
1,140
1,183
No one cares about CoinPrune, certainly not your end average end user that never runs a full node. If people want 1 minute confirmations, they can just use Beam and get a super compact chain as a bonus. And they wouldn't need CoinJoin or Wasabi because there is no transaction history in the first place.
 

Geert

Member
Aug 26, 2015
259
82
88
Evo is going to be late. WE need to make some announcements to generate excitement. All of the things I mentioned are GOOD IDEAS. INNOVATIVE. These are not fluff. AFAIK, no coin has implemented CoinPrune yet. WITH LLMQ IT'S A SNAP!
 

anilkayn

New Member
Jul 29, 2021
2
0
1
23
Wow, I completely disagree 75 percent with you. Though this is the first time I've heard concerns about contact list privacy.