MNO incentives

forro

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Apr 13, 2019
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Hello Dash community,
A couple cycles ago I submitted a proposal aimed at incentivizing greater MNO participation in evaluating and voting on proposals. It received almost zero comments on the forums, and a few weeks later I submitted it anyway. It went down in flames, and while I'm out 5 dash, it was a valuable data point for those who were paying attention.

I still believe a root cause of Dash's poor performance in the market is an ineffective treasury, enabled by low MNO participation in evaluating and voting on proposals. I continue to believe incentives are everything, and that if MNOs are given greater incentive to participate, they will. More comments, ideas, and scrutiny will drive proposals and proposal owners to greater levels of transparency, effectiveness and efficiency, resulting in real world results.

I would like to submit another proposal. This time any dash that remains at the end of each cycle would be split 60-40 between masternodes and miners, same as the eventual the block reward split.

So, to the dash community I ask, do you think this will increase participation? If not, what do you think would work?
 
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xkcd

Active Member
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Feb 19, 2017
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Why are you competing against @rion proposal? We would like to see 100% of the funding for the DAO to come from the MNO, leaving the miners with a flat rate of 40% once the reallocation is complete. This will incentivise MNOs to make better decisions on the proposals as it will affect their income more. Currently, under Ryan's plan, only 60% of the funding would come from MNOs and 40% would still come from the miners, this is better than what we have now where 0% comes from the MNOs, but doesn't go far enough.

You should let Rion raise the proposal, he is a better communicator than you.
 

qwizzie

Well-known Member
Aug 6, 2014
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I think any leftover dash of our treasury to be distributed between masternode operators and miners in a 60/40 ratio, can provide our emission rate schedule with more clarity. It eliminates uncertainty about Dash total coin emission / max supply.

Dash’s total coin emission is also the sum of a geometric series, but the ultimate total coin emission is uncertain because it cannot be known how much of the 10% block reward reserved for budget proposals will actually be allocated, since this depends on future voting behavior.
Source : https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html

In order to also use the leftover dash of our treasury as a tool to increase masternode voting participation, i think we need to distribute it among those masternode operators that have a voting history. I don't know if that is technically possible to arrange.

Since other people are also planning to introduce decision proposals about the leftover dash of our treasury, i would suggest waiting till those decision proposals emerge on the network in the next cycle.

However if those decision proposals are different from your suggested distribution of leftover dash of our treasury in a 60/40 masternodes / miners ratio, then by all means introduce your decision proposal and you will have my support.

The reason for my support is that i find a distribution of leftover dash towards masternodes and miners in a 60/40 ratio more fair towards miners, as they then receive some additional dash on top of their ultimately scheduled 40% of the blockrewards. It may even help with getting miners support for our current blockreward reallocation change / Dash Core Update v0.16

Also it comes across as less greedy, if we split the leftover dash of the treasury to both masternode operators and miners.
 
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qwizzie

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Aug 6, 2014
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Why are you competing against @rion proposal? We would like to see 100% of the funding for the DAO to come from the MNO, leaving the miners with a flat rate of 40% once the reallocation is complete. This will incentivise MNOs to make better decisions on the proposals as it will affect their income more. Currently, under Ryan's plan, only 60% of the funding would come from MNOs and 40% would still come from the miners, this is better than what we have now where 0% comes from the MNOs, but doesn't go far enough.

You should let Rion raise the proposal, he is a better communicator than you.
Where is Rion's proposal being discussed exactly ? Please don't tell me just on one specific Discord ?
DashPay Reddit ? Dash.org/forum ? Dash Nation Discord ?
 

qwizzie

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Aug 6, 2014
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I think there is more information here
and on Discord.

That is disappointing. Rion should know by now to hold pre-decision proposal discussions on Dash.org/forum, DashPay Reddit and both Discords
(i have not seen Rion's decision proposal being discussed on Dash Nation Discord, which makes me think it is only discussed in the other Discord)


Run a pre-proposal discussion

Get feedback from the community before you post your proposal to the blockchain. A discussion period of around two weeks will help you find out if someone has proposed something similar in the past, and whether it succeeded or failed. There are pre-proposal channels on the forum and Dash Nation Discord, and Reddit also attracts a lot of views - consider the discussion on these channels to be the research phase of your proposal. Later, you can post a link to the forum discussion when your proposal goes live to show you are including community feedback in your work.
Source : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/8-steps-to-a-successful-proposal.18377/
 

rion

Member
Aug 26, 2016
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Why are you competing against @rion proposal? We would like to see 100% of the funding for the DAO to come from the MNO, leaving the miners with a flat rate of 40% once the reallocation is complete.
@xkcd, the plan is to settle down at 36% fixed miner reward, not 40%. This aligns with Ryan's plan at 10% proposal funding.

Regarding @forro's post, I recommend not putting in your own proposal. Other entities will be putting in proposals covering two options for the community to decide on.

I haven't made a dedicated thread about this (either here or elsewhere) for several reasons, but mainly because details about what should be proposed and who would be proposing them has been (and still is to some degree) in flux. I personally recommended that once the two options are fleshed out that we put them both forth as a pre-proposal here, so that the community could give feedback before they go live, but others (they know who they are) favored "not delaying the process", and just going live with them once they were ready.

I want to give the community as much time and information as possible on this, as it's a big decision, but I can't control other people's preferences, and I'd prefer to continue working with them rather than against them, as much as possible. It's a tricky balance that I've done everything I can to maintain.
 
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qwizzie

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Aug 6, 2014
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@xkcd, the plan is to settle down at 36% fixed miner reward, not 40%. This aligns with Ryan's plan at 10% proposal funding.

Regarding @forro's post, I recommend not putting in your own proposal. Other entities will be putting in proposals covering two options for the community to decide on.

I haven't made a dedicated thread about this (either here or elsewhere) for several reasons, but mainly because details about what should be proposed and who would be proposing them has been (and still is to some degree) in flux. I personally recommended that once the two options are fleshed out that we put them both forth as a pre-proposal here, so that the community could give feedback before they go live, but others (they know who they are) favored "not delaying the process", and just going live with them once they were ready.

I want to give the community as much time and information as possible on this, as it's a big decision, but I can't control other people's preferences, and I'd prefer to continue working with them rather than against them, as much as possible. It's a tricky balance that I've done everything I can to maintain.
Rion : i just noticed that your group's decision proposal (MNO Plan) that is currently on the network, allows for an increase in Dash Budget to 20% (taking -10% from the masternodes) and is therefore totally different from forro's pre-discussion proposal.

I will be forced to vote down both DCG Plan & the MNO plan, as they both allow for extending our budget to 20%.
Extending the budget from 10% to anything higher is a big NO for me.

Forro : if you are still interested in creating a decision proposal that keeps our current blockreward allocation (36% Miners, 54% Masternodes, 10% Budget)
and just focus on the leftover Dash / not-allocated Dash of that 10% Budget , you will have my support.
 
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rion

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I understand your perspective here. For you, and anyone who is against raising the limit to 20%, voting down both proposals right now might not be your best strategy.

If your goal is to have less DASH going to POs, you might be better off choosing the option that makes it less likely for MNOs to fund proposals, which is the MNO Plan.
 
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forro

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Apr 13, 2019
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Rion : i just noticed that your group's decision proposal (MNO Plan) that is currently on the network, allows for an increase in Dash Budget to 20% (taking -10% from the masternodes) and is therefore totally different from forro's pre-discussion proposal.

I will be forced to vote down both DCG Plan & the MNO plan, as they both allow for extending our budget to 20%.
Extending the budget from 10% to anything higher is a big NO for me.

Forro : if you are still interested in creating a decision proposal that keeps our current blockreward allocation (36% Miners, 54% Masternodes, 10% Budget)
and just focus on the leftover Dash / not-allocated Dash of that 10% Budget , you will have my support.
Thanks qwizzie, but I think I'm done with this shitshow. Feel free to submit it yourself, you have more masternodes than I do. I already blew 5 dash on my first proposal, and I got zero participation on the pre-proposal discussion, including you, and now all these bozos hiding out on discord are now here to promote themselves and act like they've never heard of me before. Bunch of jerkoffs. So, enjoy watching 20% of block rewards go to scammers and parasites. It will be a pig trough that rivals the US government. Dash will continue it's slide into oblivion, as the parasites kill the host.
 

xkcd

Active Member
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Feb 19, 2017
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Bozo and jerk off reporting for duty. First off, we are not hiding out in the discord, it is just a medium that is more conducive to real-time discussions and information interchange, bulletin boards tend be where Boomers such as yourself feel more comfortable. Now that we have got the pleasantries out of the way, let's get to business.



The MNO proposal aims to invigorate the MNO and get them more involved in the decision making process by directly affecting their income. We believe that despite increasing the DAO to 20% of the emitted coins, the MNOs will actually reign in frivolous spending on low value proposals, while still having surge capacity of those few and far between gems that could really be beneficial for DASH.


I am happy to hear your considered reply, hope to hear from you soon.

-X
 

stan.distortion

Well-known Member
Oct 30, 2014
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Thanks qwizzie, but I think I'm done with this shitshow. Feel free to submit it yourself, you have more masternodes than I do. I already blew 5 dash on my first proposal, and I got zero participation on the pre-proposal discussion, including you, and now all these bozos hiding out on discord are now here to promote themselves and act like they've never heard of me before. Bunch of jerkoffs. So, enjoy watching 20% of block rewards go to scammers and parasites. It will be a pig trough that rivals the US government. Dash will continue it's slide into oblivion, as the parasites kill the host.
"I got zero participation on the pre-proposal discussion"? I replied to you in that thread, was I wrong? No, I've never heard of you. I've no idea why that would suprise you but your assumption that we would have is most of the problem. A minor proposal from a relatively unknown member would have to be good to pass, a major change to the fundamentals of our governance system with no plans to actually do the work involved? Not a snowballs chance in hell!
 

bhkien

Active Member
Mar 31, 2014
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I would like to comment on Dashcentral.org. However, I don't want to reveal information about my masternodes, but it doesn't let me comment on it without prove my masternode ownership.

Is this really need to prove masternode ownership to comment on proposals?
 

rion

Member
Aug 26, 2016
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@bhkien, you can comment on the live proposal forum post here:

and on Dash Nexus here: