Losing faith in DRK

BelStar

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I believe now is a critical time to look back at the past months and carefully consider options for the future of Darkcoin. While there still is a core group of people living in the "Cult of Evan" I am starting to think that DRK is in trouble. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

The initial hype is gone and the next step should be real-world adoption. While DRK has been a flagship and an incubator of the most creative ideas in crypto over the past months the implementation is severely lacking. In the current context it is hard to imagine it will ever really "work" and not be some kind of gimmick.

Based on information found on this forum, on the official DRK Jira, and on the IRC channel, I have considered several critical points that got me doubting the future of DRK:

  • Technical solution: RC2 and RC3 where evident failures due to hard forks. RC4 is also a failure but a more discrete one as there was no hard fork. It was the release that could not fail... This said it is far from the "great success" that blinded supporters are promoting. A reflection of this is that the communication campaign mentioned by Eltito has never taken place (https://darkcointalk.org/threads/status-update-7-1-2014.1675/)
    As we move into RC4, we will engage in a significantly more organized campaign to disseminate information than we have with any previous RC launch.
    Even with a reduced scope (no enforcement) and a rushed, insufficiently tested release (no masternode voting consensus tests, no rollback/go-live tests), here are some troublesome facts:
    • Darksend is still not working correctly; it was a catastrophe after the RC4 release to mainnet and it is now working adequately under specific conditions but this is still insufficient for real-world use by lambda users. Only hardcore users dare to denominate their coins on mainnet. See examples at https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rc4-issues-bugs-feature-requests.2039/page-13#post-18249 and http://www.reddit.com/r/DRKCoin/comments/2f01r2/issues_with_the_lastest_version/
    • The core of the solution (masternodes and payment of masternodes) is under heavy fire by no one else than Evan and flare. The payment system was considered flawed in RC3, hence the rework in RC4. One of the most fundamental components of DRK is still not stable... On Jira, Evan now candidly posts at http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-24?jql= :
      It turns out the masternode voting system is over complicated and somewhat risky to the network, so I've removed it and am using the RC3 masternode payment system. This means we won't have enforcement, but it fixes all of these issues and removes the risk to the network.
      On top of that, flare, who is one of the few to have seen the code, considers the RC3 payment system not viable (https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rc4-issues-bugs-feature-requests.2039/page-13#post-18236):
      As for me, i am still searching for a new approach to make the payments more network intrinsic - MNs should actually mine their coins by proof of service, not rely on good acting miners to share their mined coins. If we can somehow create a model where miners (PoW) and masternodes (PoSVC) mine independently from each other, we will even have a solution for further payments for "DarkTor" relays and exit nodes. The current approach (divide PoW reward) seems not flexible enough to achieve this.
    • No enforcement: enforcement of masternode payment was already promised in RC3 but quickly put aside due to hard fork risks. The spork alternative has been interesting but let's not fool ourselves, most masternode owners have been waiting for the possibility to enforce masternode payments for a long time, like vertoe. Most of us have the feeling that leaving things to the pools' generosity is a doubtful strategy. See http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-19?jql= and https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rc4-issues-bugs-feature-requests.2039/page-13#post-18199. Additionally, when asked what would be done about pools that decide not to pay masternodes Evan answered (https://darkcointalk.org/threads/closed-rc4-testing.1830/page-78#post-15352):
      They'll update or we'll kick them off the network.
      I wonder how he is going to achieve that now.
    • For the first time, users are actually losing DRK due to corrupt wallets that even Evan is unable to salvage while the root cause remains unknown. See http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-27?jql= where Evan states:
      Sorry, but this wallet is not recoverable. At some point during the darksend process, it looks like it was overwritten with invalid data and corrupted. It's missing transactions that happened, including you that contain the 571 darkcoin that are missing.

      The debug information you sent was useful but it didn't contain the transactions in question (it doesn't go back far enough). So I wasn't able to tell what the root cause was.
    • Useability issues: the wallet redesign that could have improved the user experience and was initiated by DRKLord has been on hold for several days or weeks. Initially, supporters were hoping to see this redesign coincide with the RC4 release; it is now unclear whether it would even be considered for RC5. It is not mentioned by Evan in his August 19 development update. See https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-august-19-2014.2086/ and https://darkcointalk.org/threads/enhanced-darkcoin-wallet-ui.1705/
This list is not exhaustive but this post is already getting too long...

Taking all the above-mentioned points that I have tried to describe as objectively as possible in the interest of Darkcoin, are we really ready to opensource RC5 and expose these blatant weaknesses? Are we really intending to kill DRK?
 
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vertoe

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Well observed and well researched. I couldnt agree more.

It mainly breaks down that the development team in no way listens to the community and this is really poor. And where is our community lead anyways? Even for me it's hard to follow what's going on behind the scenes.
 
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jpr

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Yes it does look like Eltito is not active anymore. DrkLord dissapeared. And Chaositec? What is he actually working on? It doesn't feel like they are official developers.
 

fernando

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I agree that there are some issues, but I think most are solvable. The only one that I see no solution is the guy losing his darkcoins. That is really bad.

The dev team has to learn to work together and that takes time. Most of the additions are relatively new, so it is normal that it takes some time for them to catch up with eduffield. Also, Evan is in this full time, but I believe none of the others are (maybe InternetApe is, I'm not sure), so they can't put as much time as he does. CHAOSiTEC doesn't engage much here because he works in a boat for 15 straight days every month. In a recent thread he started about his Mintpal account being hacked and him losing his darkcoins, he commented that the stuff he does was not visible to most people (someone was suggesting that he asked for donations but he didn't think nobody would donate). darklord also posted a thread about being robbed by a friend while being at the hospital for a few days, so I guess he's been dealing with a few personal issues recently.

Regarding enforcement, Evan did a post at bitcointalk explaining his comment in Jira and said that we would have something at RC5. That going back to the RC3 system was only a temp, and far from ideal, solution.

eltito is not missing, he posts here sometimes and he is quite active at bitcointalk lately (I agree that we should try to post more here and less there, but that's another discussion). I also know that he reads a lot even when he doesn't post. And I believe he is in constant contact with the devs.

I think the communication campaign he talked about has not been done because, as you point, the launch of RC4 was not as expected. There were several versions in a few days. Then came cryptocrash. And it is August. I haven't seen or been part in any official discussion about communications, but there have been many comments by many in the community saying that we should wait to RC5 to push hard for adoption (btw, I don't agree, I think the sooner, the better, but it has to be done one by one, I don't believe we can launch huge things for this). I think this has been something slow that has been decided almost automatically and by nobody in particular.

Anyway, I think it is great that you post your concerns and that we all discuss them here. Just putting that post together shows that you care. Please, don't understand my comments are a denial of the problems, I'm just trying to add what I know to what you have researched :)
 

BelStar

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Thanks for your reply, fernando.

I agree that there are some issues, but I think most are solvable.
That's how I would have felt a couple of releases ago. However, we are systematically confronted to structural failures and the need to go back to the drawing board to redesign core functionality instead of building further. Hence why I'm losing faith.
 
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fernando

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Thanks for your reply, fernando.



That's how I would have felt a couple of releases ago. However, we are systematically confronted to structural failures and the need to go back to the drawing board to redesign core functionality instead of building further. Hence why I'm losing faith.
I'm not a developer myself, but I recently cofounded a tiny gaming company and I see that same pattern. I think that is something intrinsic to the process of development. It can be mitigated, but we should also manage expectations. The environment of cryptos doesn't help with that... you are dead if you don't announce new things constantly!
 

Scriptiee

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I'm not a developer myself, but I recently cofounded a tiny gaming company and I see that same pattern. I think that is something intrinsic to the process of development. It can be mitigated, but we should also manage expectations. The environment of cryptos doesn't help with that... you are dead if you don't announce new things constantly!
This is indeed that the case, people feel that if no new feature is announced (basically coin is not being hyped) then it means the coin is dead. I feel this is
absolute bullshit, BelStar you have to realise this is still a beta product, these are beta releases.

We can start promoting (hyping or whatever you wanna call it) the coin once we are out of beta (which in my opinion will be next year and a half still)

Have you seen any other project from near zero to a fully featured completed in 6 months? I haven't. Again I don't dismiss your post at all.
 
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georgem

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Darkcoin is just half a year old. Maybe we should show some patience. It's such a ridiculous time we live in, where exchanges and daytraders decide the success or failure of a coin.
 

BelStar

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This is indeed that the case, people feel that if no new feature is announced (basically coin is not being hyped) then it means the coin is dead. I feel this is
absolute bullshit, BelStar you have to realise this is still a beta product, these are beta releases.

We can start promoting (hyping or whatever you wanna call it) the coin once we are out of beta (which in my opinion will be next year and a half still)

Have you seen any other project from near zero to a fully featured completed in 6 months? I haven't. Again I don't dismiss your post at all.
As discussed on IRC, I could rephrase my concern into : "Where will DRK stand in another 6 months?" Based on past performance, I doubt we will have a functional solution by then if nothing changes.
 

georgem

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The great thing is that nobody forces you to use darksend.
To this day I never used darksend, because of obvious errors, I just slowly accumulate darkcoin, and use it as a normal wallet. Not anonymized.

That's the great thing, and the reason why I have no problem being patient.
Because my darkcoins remain safe, and I decide myself if I want to use darksend or not.
At the moment darksend provides more or less functional anonymity, but one day I want it to work flawlessly and provide highly reliable anonymity. We are not there yet.

I like that, it's like we can buy darkcoin shares while the true darkcoin breakthru is being worked on.
It will happen! Not in the next weeks, maybe not even in the next 6 months.
But who said this has to be finished soon?
Maybe projects like darkcoin need to be developped "forever"? Getting better and better? Isn't this real evolution? Much like evolution has no goal, it just keeps on adapting?
 
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jpr

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The great thing is that nobody forces you to use darksend.
To this day I never used darksend, because of obvious errors, I just slowly accumulate darkcoin, and use it as a normal wallet. Not anonymized.

That's the great thing, and the reason why I have no problem being patient.
Because my darkcoins remain safe, and I decide myself if I want to use darksend or not.
Are you saying you are not using Darksend+ because it is not working as it should and you are afraid of loosing your coins?
How are we supposed to start promoting and adoption if we don't use this feature ourselves?
 
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georgem

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Are you saying you are not using Darksend+ because it is not working as it should and you are afraid of loosing your coins?
How are we supposed to start promoting and adoption if we don't use this feature ourselves?
I will always promote darkcoin as a coin that gives you the possibility to anonymize your coins if you want to.
The way I understand it, darkcoin allows you to use anonymity... it doesn't force you to use it. (and hopefully never will)

Also, when I explain darkcoin to people, I always explain to them that anonymity is a process, that such a thing like 100% anonymity can't be achieved in reality.
It's like length or strength, it can grow and grow, but it can't reach a point of "absolute length" or "absolute strength" because that would be silly.

So I explain to people that we have a very promising constantly developped thing called darkcoin that strives to become nr.1 in anonymity. Meanwhile they can always use darkcoin like a normal altcoin.

Darkcoin is like two coins in one, I tell them. This is unique and should be more emphasized in future promotions.
 

jpr

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I will always promote darkcoin as a coin that gives you the possibility to anonymize your coins if you want to.
The way I understand it, darkcoin allows you to use anonymity... it doesn't force you to use it. (and hopefully never will)

Also, when I explain darkcoin to people, I always explain to them that anonymity is a process, that such a thing like 100% anonymity can't be achieved in reality.
It's like length or strength, it can grow and grow, but it can't reach a point of "absolute length" or "absolute strength" because that would be silly.

So I explain to people that we have a very promising constantly developped thing called darkcoin that strives to become nr.1 in anonymity. Meanwhile they can always use darkcoin like a normal altcoin.

Darkcoin is like two coins in one, I tell them. This is unique and should be more emphasized in future promotions.
Yes. But you said you are not using darksend "because of obvious errors" and that "my darkcoins remain safe, and I decide myself if I want to use darksend or not." which made me thinking the DS+ is not safe to use/not working properly.
 
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moli

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Yes. But you said you are not using darksend "because of obvious errors" and that "my darkcoins remain safe, and I decide myself if I want to use darksend or not." which made me thinking the DS+ is not safe to use/not working properly.
I have used DS, it's not working perfectly, YET. But it works. I asked someone to trace a tx, it could not be traced. It seems to me that many people in the open sore community are afraid to use DS because it's not "open-sourced", or whatever reason.
 
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georgem

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Yes. But you said you are not using darksend "because of obvious errors" and that "my darkcoins remain safe, and I decide myself if I want to use darksend or not." which made me thinking the DS+ is not safe to use/not working properly.
Well, most people (including kristov atlas) did succesfully use darksend... others (like camosoul) had a few problems with it... so that's what tells me to not use darksend yet. Unless I had to do an anonymous small payment, then I would use it. At the moment I am waiting and watching what other people say.
You can now successfully use darksend. But there are potential problems, meaning it's still in beta.
 

BelStar

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The great thing is that nobody forces you to use darksend.
To this day I never used darksend, because of obvious errors, I just slowly accumulate darkcoin, and use it as a normal wallet. Not anonymized.
To achieve this, we could have stayed with RC4 on testnet longer to make sure things were working properly instead of going to mainnet with immature software. There was no hurry to go live. Now things are different as there is buggy software on mainnet and the need to fix things quickly (or quicker).
 
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georgem

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To achieve this, we could have stayed with RC4 on testnet longer to make sure things were working properly instead of going to mainnet with immature software. There was no hurry to go live. Now things are different as there is buggy software on mainnet and the need to fix things quickly (or quicker).
Yes, I agree. F**king daytraders demanding to see more update faster and faster.

Evan should completely refrain from making deadline announcements for future releases, that's not how a developer works.
Sure, I create software too, and my customers give me deadlines, but we exactly agree upfront what I am supposed to create, and what the endresult should look like.
Since darkcoin doesn't work this way, we should refrain from deadlines alltogether, and keep on solving the next problem until it is "mathematically" solved.

Also, enough with this RC bullshit.... we already have version numbers, we don't need fancy RC marketing.
 
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moli

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To achieve this, we could have stayed with RC4 on testnet longer to make sure things were working properly instead of going to mainnet with immature software. There was no hurry to go live. Now things are different as there is buggy software on mainnet and the need to fix things quickly (or quicker).
BelStar, let's be fair to Evan. Yes we wished he had stayed on testnet a few more days, but Evan knows best when to go on main net. I see two things: deadline (he had promised to release RC4 early August), and Testnet is just a testnet, many real problems can only be found on main net. You already criticized him for his delay in your first post "This has concretely translated into consecutive missed deadlines and botched releases to mainnet".... So there was no hurry to go live but missing a deadline is unacceptable? ok. I agree with george that Evan should not have deadlines anymore.. Let's see if there won't be fudders on bct talking about that. :p
 
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Propulsion

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BelStar that was one of the nicest written posts I've ever seen. Really great formatting; well done!

All your points are valid. At the moment, it seems that a lot of the developers are MIA but I don't believe that to be the case.

The Developers
InternetApe has not been seen in what seems like months. CHAOSiTEC has a very odd work schedule and usually works on the project in the background. If you ever go on IRC, you'll usually see him working on something there. DRKLord, I have no idea. flare is super active and always seems to be working on something. It was his idea to set up Jira and has been actively developing since eduffield announced him as a developer. Lastly eduffield himself, that man is in the process of creating a foundation, helping users resolve errors and issues, keeping everyone informed of current progress, receiving feedback on code bugs from various sources who have been made privy to the code, and developing now a system to rival TOR. To say he's spread thin would be an understatement.

Community Lead
eltito is one man. It's extremely difficult to update everyone 24/7. Once again, he does more in the background than most people realize.

The Currency Itself
The Darkcoin project has been around for only eight months. In this time frame, a functional anonymity system has been made as well as a full node system that rewards operators. An actual problem of Bitcoin's network is the lack of an incentive to run a full node. Darkcoin's node count will undoubtedly rival Bitcoin's in the future.

Open Source
Once the project is released the fireworks will happen. Every single person on this planet will be able to read and understand the code. With that, they can improve upon it and help solidify Darkcoin's position as a truly trustless anonymous coin. With the movement to opensource, the developer count will increase tremendously. As long as the code is on Github anyone will be able to create commits with improvements and advances. Open source is the final major milestone for the currency; fireworks.

Darkcoin TOR/I2P Network
This is the only qualm I have with the currency. If this service is made, in my opinion, it should only be created after opensource and final stable release of the currency itself. Trying to do both at once seems like the saying "biting off more than they can chew". I also believe it should be a separate module itself that works alongside the wallet but that's not important for this discussion.

The Background
How did everyone find out about the creation of the Darkcoin foundation? Through a mandatory newspaper article. This is just one example of the many things that happen without everyone's involvement. As much as it sucks, not everything is shared. There are just too many moving parts. What is important and should be noted is that there is actual stuff happening. No one has stopped or quit. Progress is still being made.

Summary
You've highlighted the technical challenges of creating a multimillion anonymous online payment system. If it went so smoothly up to this point I'd be worried. There some areas where improvement is needed like an open discussion for proposed features. All in all though, if you are not focusing on the price of one coin alone, this project is moving swimmingly.
 

moli

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About DrkLord, in one of his posts DrkLord said he had to rush to the emergency due to some illness, I hope he's okay. We are lucky to have flare on the dev team, he's such a humble guy working relentlessly and quietly to help with the project. And we are also very lucky to have Propulsion, elbereth, vertoe, yidakee, and many others that have been helping/working on various things for the project. Let's not ask what Evan can do for us, let's ask what we can do for this project, shall we? :)

I also hope we can look at the positives instead of negatives of this project. Darksend itself is a revolutionary innovation. Lifting the limit of DS from 10 drk is a huge accomplishment. Having the Masternode system in place is another huge accomplishment. I'm sure Evan has been working overtime to get the MN payment to work properly. Flare has also been looking at how the MN owners can be rewarded with Proof of Service apart from miners. We are very lucky to have these dedicated, committed, competent, daring devs and volunteers on this project. Let's not lose sight and let the devs work to get this project to be where it's supposed to be.

As Thomas Edison said, "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." If Edison had given up his hope, would we still have the light bulb? maybe, maybe not. Will anything happen if we don't keep trying? I think Evan and flare will tell us someday, "We have not failed. We've just found 10,000 ways that won't work!"
 
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tungfa

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First of , it is (was) August, big summer break, people go on holidays without telling anybody,
so i guess it is/was slow out there, and now after the summer we will get back on track ! ....>

For the post by Belstar !
And there we go again !!
Sorry to say, but i heard and read these issues many times before, in open threads (like here) or in closed conversations !

As far as i understand BelStar he is NOT hustling/expecting the Dev Team for new versions and Developments all the time,
he is concerned regarding the the Actual State of the Development !

I can not say much to that, as I am never on Jira (and would not understand it anyway) or the code and such !
I hope you guys from the Dev Team/ Staff Members take his concerns seriously, as we should. For me as a non technical person (sure i trust evan) K Atlas is working through that code and whatever does not make sense or will not work he will point out as his name is as much in it as 'ours'.
(so i believe/hope that is all good)
the only thing i can say to this is: "deadline and rush developments for RC ...."
you kidding me, who care ! The FUD will be out there anyway, we need solid products (DRK, DS+, MN's...), if they takes weeks longer to finnish, who cares, send an update to your community and they will stand 100% behind you Evan, it is that easy !!!

My big concern in this (and this thread ) is the answers from the (only) Dev Team members who answered to this
fernando and @verteo (sorry guys, i do NOT wanna in any way attack you or put you on the sport, but this is just the perfect example !
I tried to have this conversation in private many times over !!)

- verteo totally agrees with belstar
(Well observed and well researched. I couldnt agree more.
It mainly breaks down that the development team in no way listens to the community and this is really poor. And where is our community lead anyways? Even for me it's hard to follow what's going on behind the scenes.)

- fernando plays it off as it is no big deal at all ! (Sorry man, but that is just not enough !!!)
asking for the Dev Team members his answer is pretty much , yes they are around and busy
.... maybe InternetApe is, I'm not sure
..... CHAOSiTEC doesn't engage much
[email protected] is not missing, he posts here sometimes

So what is this telling us !?
The communication between the Dev Team and the community is BROKEN !!
half of all problems and concedes posted here or on btctalk are because of this ! There is nobody out there to communicate to the community !
Eltito started to be the 'communicator' for 2 posts and then disappeared ! what is that, well ether you take the job or you do not, and if you do (as you did) , well then do it or pass it onto somebody else). Sorry but that is just as unprofessional as it comes !
"communication campaign he talked about has not been done because, as you point, the launch of RC4"
these 2 things have nothing to do with each other ! Press releases get send out by any company who builds something new ! Specially after a complicated launch (RC4), use that to ensure the community and investors (with facts) that everything is being taken care off !
Can we PLEASE sort this out and get somebody (on the inside /Dev Team) to be the Communicator to the outside (us the community) !!!
(best would be if it is a new person who is not in the Dev Team !)

- DS+
we as the DRK Community are conceded to use/try Darksend + ! (read the posts above and check on btctalk)
well, why would anybody outside our community even attempt to use it if we (the professionals) are worried about it !
- I have no idea, why it got released so early ? (if it was supposedly not 100%)
- why are there no official updates on the wallets and DS+ (YES it is working/ NO it is not working please hold on/ Yes it is working but only in setting x/ No it ......)
(the wallet and DS+ are the biggest concerns for anybody in this crypto world, as it hold your coins, and the last thing you wanna do is loose these coins !!! .... so shouldn't we work on this issues first and with full steam !?)

- Darkcoin foundation
sure it 'leaked' out to btctalk ! everything leaks out , as the community is so desperate for news and communication !
this is NOTHING new, we know that since for ever and discussed it many times over !
What is the way to do ? Well post it before here on drktalk where it belongs ! has nothing to do with hype, it is just a news update for the community and whoever wants to listen:
"Darkcoin Foundation will be launched in Texas with team members ..... due to ......."
and everybody happy ! Done ! why make a 'secret' out of it or do it behind closed curtains ? you give one update to the community and done, everybody knows what will come and you can do whatever you want in the background again.

- MN Payments
well same old story. (i am will to getting involved in the technical side of this as you guys know much better what is what)
BUT just how it was done,.... Evan comments on btctalk and the whole fuzz is out and about !
Same thing, avoid the fuzz, make a "Development Update" and it is done and official. The kids on btctalk are peeing themselves every time something like that goes around , when did you hear that, where was that posted,.....>> cut through the crab, make it official and done coming from HERE !!

- Community in general
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/good-read-and-good-time-to-buy.2207/
"However, examining certain aspects of the Darkcoin ecosystem–such as community interaction, developer attentiveness, and exchange liquidity–provides investors with a broad snapshot of the present state and future outlook of the Darkcoin price. CoinGecko’s comprehensive coin metric analysis algorithm ranks Darkcoin 6th. Darkcoin earns a 71% developer score, a 53% exchange liquidity score, and a 40% community interaction score, which averages out to a 55% comprehensive metric score."
That is it !
read it again, we are doing so WELL (coin 70%/ Dev 53%, .... but our community interaction score is 40%)
We need a "Communicator between the Dev Team and the Community"
(updates, concerns, community spirit,....)
Again: it is NOT about coming up with NEW things all the time, it is about communicating to your community what is actually going on (NO HYPE in that !)
otherwise we are killing off our own community !

If the Dev Team does not talk to us and tells us what is happening, why would we care about all of this !
Come on ....>>
 
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recan86

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You know what calms a group of high testosterone guys down? An attractive woman who understands what she's talking about and impresses you (the man) while she does it. Get a few woman in and have them interview for the job to talk to the community, Be a face no one wants to be mad at. As a result, the development team just bought them a little more time. That maybe a little sexist but the levels of testosterone are becoming a little high.

People are excited but impatient. I always linger around these forums and if I have a problem I offer a solution otherwise I stay out of the way. I haven't lost faith in Drk but I am wondering if the community is turning on its Captain like a mutiny on a ship away to long at sea in the 1500s. Anyone can go on this forum and say "this is how it should be done" but honestly who are you if your not providing a solution for a problem? Lets try to remember that we are adults. We all have alternate lives behind these machines and for most its our passion that drives us in this community. Some of you are angry because you spent money and right now you could possibly be negative your initial investment. ... What's the number one rule in crypto? Don't spend what you are not willing to loose.

Give a little bit a break to some of these guys.

I get that we all want a steady stream of information coming at us preferably every other day or even weekly but being impatient will only cause errors and anger in a community that isn't even a year old. Consider the fact that everyone in here can read what we are saying to each other and if they loose confidence in the community itself then we loose everything. Doesn't matter what the product is if the consumer doesn't care to walk into the store.
 

fernando

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First of , it is (was) August, big summer break, people go on holidays without telling anybody,
so i guess it is/was slow out there, and now after the summer we will get back on track ! ....>

For the post by Belstar !
And there we go again !!
Sorry to say, but i heard and read these issues many times before, in open threads (like here) or in closed conversations !

As far as i understand BelStar he is NOT hustling/expecting the Dev Team for new versions and Developments all the time,
he is concerned regarding the the Actual State of the Development !

I can not say much to that, as I am never on Jira (and would not understand it anyway) or the code and such !
I hope you guys from the Dev Team/ Staff Members take his concerns seriously, as we should. For me as a non technical person (sure i trust evan) K Atlas is working through that code and whatever does not make sense or will not work he will point out as his name is as much in it as 'ours'.
(so i believe/hope that is all good)
the only thing i can say to this is: "deadline and rush developments for RC ...."
you kidding me, who care ! The FUD will be out there anyway, we need solid products (DRK, DS+, MN's...), if they takes weeks longer to finnish, who cares, send an update to your community and they will stand 100% behind you Evan, it is that easy !!!

My big concern in this (and this thread ) is the answers from the (only) Dev Team members who answered to this
fernando and @verteo (sorry guys, i do NOT wanna in any way attack you or put you on the sport, but this is just the perfect example !
I tried to have this conversation in private many times over !!)

- verteo totally agrees with belstar
(Well observed and well researched. I couldnt agree more.
It mainly breaks down that the development team in no way listens to the community and this is really poor. And where is our community lead anyways? Even for me it's hard to follow what's going on behind the scenes.)

- fernando plays it off as it is no big deal at all ! (Sorry man, but that is just not enough !!!)
asking for the Dev Team members his answer is pretty much , yes they are around and busy
.... maybe InternetApe is, I'm not sure
..... CHAOSiTEC doesn't engage much
[email protected] is not missing, he posts here sometimes

So what is this telling us !?
The communication between the Dev Team and the community is BROKEN !!
half of all problems and concedes posted here or on btctalk are because of this ! There is nobody out there to communicate to the community !
Eltito started to be the 'communicator' for 2 posts and then disappeared ! what is that, well ether you take the job or you do not, and if you do (as you did) , well then do it or pass it onto somebody else). Sorry but that is just as unprofessional as it comes !
"communication campaign he talked about has not been done because, as you point, the launch of RC4"
these 2 things have nothing to do with each other ! Press releases get send out by any company who builds something new ! Specially after a complicated launch (RC4), use that to ensure the community and investors (with facts) that everything is being taken care off !
Can we PLEASE sort this out and get somebody (on the inside /Dev Team) to be the Communicator to the outside (us the community) !!!
(best would be if it is a new person who is not in the Dev Team !)

- DS+
we as the DRK Community are conceded to use/try Darksend + ! (read the posts above and check on btctalk)
well, why would anybody outside our community even attempt to use it if we (the professionals) are worried about it !
- I have no idea, why it got released so early ? (if it was supposedly not 100%)
- why are there no official updates on the wallets and DS+ (YES it is working/ NO it is not working please hold on/ Yes it is working but only in setting x/ No it ......)
(the wallet and DS+ are the biggest concerns for anybody in this crypto world, as it hold your coins, and the last thing you wanna do is loose these coins !!! .... so shouldn't we work on this issues first and with full steam !?)

- Darkcoin foundation
sure it 'leaked' out to btctalk ! everything leaks out , as the community is so desperate for news and communication !
this is NOTHING new, we know that since for ever and discussed it many times over !
What is the way to do ? Well post it before here on drktalk where it belongs ! has nothing to do with hype, it is just a news update for the community and whoever wants to listen:
"Darkcoin Foundation will be launched in Texas with team members ..... due to ......."
and everybody happy ! Done ! why make a 'secret' out of it or do it behind closed curtains ? you give one update to the community and done, everybody knows what will come and you can do whatever you want in the background again.

- MN Payments
well same old story. (i am will to getting involved in the technical side of this as you guys know much better what is what)
BUT just how it was done,.... Evan comments on btctalk and the whole fuzz is out and about !
Same thing, avoid the fuzz, make a "Development Update" and it is done and official. The kids on btctalk are peeing themselves every time something like that goes around , when did you hear that, where was that posted,.....>> cut through the crab, make it official and done coming from HERE !!

- Community in general
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/good-read-and-good-time-to-buy.2207/
"However, examining certain aspects of the Darkcoin ecosystem–such as community interaction, developer attentiveness, and exchange liquidity–provides investors with a broad snapshot of the present state and future outlook of the Darkcoin price. CoinGecko’s comprehensive coin metric analysis algorithm ranks Darkcoin 6th. Darkcoin earns a 71% developer score, a 53% exchange liquidity score, and a 40% community interaction score, which averages out to a 55% comprehensive metric score."
That is it !
read it again, we are doing so WELL (coin 70%/ Dev 53%, .... but our community interaction score is 40%)
We need a "Communicator between the Dev Team and the Community"
(updates, concerns, community spirit,....)
Again: it is NOT about coming up with NEW things all the time, it is about communicating to your community what is actually going on (NO HYPE in that !)
otherwise we are killing off our own community !

If the Dev Team does not talk to us and tells us what is happening, why would we care about all of this !
Come on ....>>
Just a small clarification, I'm not part of the deav team... if I were then you should be worried because my coding skills are as bad as they get :) Anyway, I'm gonna be a director in the foundation, so I guess I'm part of the team in a broader sense. By the way, the creation of the foundation was not leaked, it was Evan who posted the newspaper ad! The foundation had been talked many times before and Evan thought that it was a fun way to announce that it was finally started. There was no intention to keep it secret or anything. If there were it would not have been announced because one thing I'm sure... nobody reads the public notice section of the Asian American Times (the newspaper in which it was published). Ed Moncada, another director, has explained how it started (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg8589870#msg8589870). This is at a very early stage, that's why there have not been more information yet.

Back to topic. I'm not trying to play off BelStar's concerns, what I said is that the project is at an early stage and people areh learning to work together. Of course, there are problems! we would not be here discussing if there weren't.

Regarding communication and the weekly announcement that eltito started, the problem is that most weeks there is no content, so it is not easy to do it. However, we should have at least one about the current state of RC4 and how it is working because clearly some people is worried about Darksend. In my experience it is mostly working, but there are issues that should be solved in RC5 (btw, Jira is super easy to use and you don't need to understand code to read around).

The easiest idea I have to improve communication is to always post at darkcointalk first. But we should also cross post to bitcointalk because there are people who care about Darkcoin that are only there.

As for Gecko's community score... As far as I know it is just a ratio that takes into account Twitter followers, Facebook likes and Reddit subscribers. It is very interesting, but it has little to do with our communication problem.
 
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moli

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First of , it is (was) August, big summer break, people go on holidays without telling anybody,
so i guess it is/was slow out there, and now after the summer we will get back on track ! ....>

For the post by Belstar !
And there we go again !!
Sorry to say, but i heard and read these issues many times before, in open threads (like here) or in closed conversations !

As far as i understand BelStar he is NOT hustling/expecting the Dev Team for new versions and Developments all the time,
he is concerned regarding the the Actual State of the Development !

I can not say much to that, as I am never on Jira (and would not understand it anyway) or the code and such !
I hope you guys from the Dev Team/ Staff Members take his concerns seriously, as we should. For me as a non technical person (sure i trust evan) K Atlas is working through that code and whatever does not make sense or will not work he will point out as his name is as much in it as 'ours'.
(so i believe/hope that is all good)
the only thing i can say to this is: "deadline and rush developments for RC ...."
you kidding me, who care ! The FUD will be out there anyway, we need solid products (DRK, DS+, MN's...), if they takes weeks longer to finnish, who cares, send an update to your community and they will stand 100% behind you Evan, it is that easy !!!

My big concern in this (and this thread ) is the answers from the (only) Dev Team members who answered to this
fernando and @verteo (sorry guys, i do NOT wanna in any way attack you or put you on the sport, but this is just the perfect example !
I tried to have this conversation in private many times over !!)

- verteo totally agrees with belstar
(Well observed and well researched. I couldnt agree more.
It mainly breaks down that the development team in no way listens to the community and this is really poor. And where is our community lead anyways? Even for me it's hard to follow what's going on behind the scenes.)

- fernando plays it off as it is no big deal at all ! (Sorry man, but that is just not enough !!!)
asking for the Dev Team members his answer is pretty much , yes they are around and busy
.... maybe InternetApe is, I'm not sure
..... CHAOSiTEC doesn't engage much
[email protected] is not missing, he posts here sometimes

So what is this telling us !?
The communication between the Dev Team and the community is BROKEN !!
half of all problems and concedes posted here or on btctalk are because of this ! There is nobody out there to communicate to the community !
Eltito started to be the 'communicator' for 2 posts and then disappeared ! what is that, well ether you take the job or you do not, and if you do (as you did) , well then do it or pass it onto somebody else). Sorry but that is just as unprofessional as it comes !
"communication campaign he talked about has not been done because, as you point, the launch of RC4"
these 2 things have nothing to do with each other ! Press releases get send out by any company who builds something new ! Specially after a complicated launch (RC4), use that to ensure the community and investors (with facts) that everything is being taken care off !
Can we PLEASE sort this out and get somebody (on the inside /Dev Team) to be the Communicator to the outside (us the community) !!!
(best would be if it is a new person who is not in the Dev Team !)

- DS+
we as the DRK Community are conceded to use/try Darksend + ! (read the posts above and check on btctalk)
well, why would anybody outside our community even attempt to use it if we (the professionals) are worried about it !
- I have no idea, why it got released so early ? (if it was supposedly not 100%)
- why are there no official updates on the wallets and DS+ (YES it is working/ NO it is not working please hold on/ Yes it is working but only in setting x/ No it ......)
(the wallet and DS+ are the biggest concerns for anybody in this crypto world, as it hold your coins, and the last thing you wanna do is loose these coins !!! .... so shouldn't we work on this issues first and with full steam !?)

- Darkcoin foundation
sure it 'leaked' out to btctalk ! everything leaks out , as the community is so desperate for news and communication !
this is NOTHING new, we know that since for ever and discussed it many times over !
What is the way to do ? Well post it before here on drktalk where it belongs ! has nothing to do with hype, it is just a news update for the community and whoever wants to listen:
"Darkcoin Foundation will be launched in Texas with team members ..... due to ......."
and everybody happy ! Done ! why make a 'secret' out of it or do it behind closed curtains ? you give one update to the community and done, everybody knows what will come and you can do whatever you want in the background again.

- MN Payments
well same old story. (i am will to getting involved in the technical side of this as you guys know much better what is what)
BUT just how it was done,.... Evan comments on btctalk and the whole fuzz is out and about !
Same thing, avoid the fuzz, make a "Development Update" and it is done and official. The kids on btctalk are peeing themselves every time something like that goes around , when did you hear that, where was that posted,.....>> cut through the crab, make it official and done coming from HERE !!

- Community in general
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/good-read-and-good-time-to-buy.2207/
"However, examining certain aspects of the Darkcoin ecosystem–such as community interaction, developer attentiveness, and exchange liquidity–provides investors with a broad snapshot of the present state and future outlook of the Darkcoin price. CoinGecko’s comprehensive coin metric analysis algorithm ranks Darkcoin 6th. Darkcoin earns a 71% developer score, a 53% exchange liquidity score, and a 40% community interaction score, which averages out to a 55% comprehensive metric score."
That is it !
read it again, we are doing so WELL (coin 70%/ Dev 53%, .... but our community interaction score is 40%)
We need a "Communicator between the Dev Team and the Community"
(updates, concerns, community spirit,....)
Again: it is NOT about coming up with NEW things all the time, it is about communicating to your community what is actually going on (NO HYPE in that !)
otherwise we are killing off our own community !

If the Dev Team does not talk to us and tells us what is happening, why would we care about all of this !
Come on ....>>
This is such a rambling post. You maybe have a valid point but what I see is you're either angry or trolling. Very much like most of the rambling, unorganized, nonsensical posts on BCT. Are you expecting your devs to do their job, and at the same time listen to all your whining and screaming?

Sure, I would love to see eltito to communicate more with you guys on BCT, or at least tell you guys to just shut up. But the threads on BCT always go so fast, if there were 5 community leaders designated to talk to you guys, their posts would still get lost after 10 minutes, because you guys would rather talk/type about all kinds of topics rather than listening to the dev team. There's no perfect software developers. Oh, and most of them don't talk, can't communicate effectively. But if you have a technical problem, they will be happy to help you. :p
 
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tungfa

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Just a small clarification, I'm not part of the deav team... if I were then you should be worried because my coding skills are as bad as they get :)
My bet,
sorry to put you on the spot.

Lets hear from The Dev Team then what is going on !
(I hope Evan does not have to reply himself as he is/should be busy coding)
as you/we can see in this thread, the community has no idea who is actually involved in the Dev Team anymore.

"The easiest idea I have to improve communication is to always post at darkcointalk first."
we said and agreed on that again and again and again ... and it still is not happening or working !

"we should have at least one about the current state of RC4 and how it is working because clearly some people is worried about Darksend"
PLEASE !

"weekly announcement that eltito started, the problem is that most weeks there is no content"
sorry but i have to disagree, there are so many things going on all the time in DRK world, it would be great to summarize them once a week or every 2 weeks
(no hype in this), just a summery
- progress on RCx, Ideas for DarkTor, progress on OB implementation, Numbers up on FB, New Dev Team members or Old once gone, New Wallets design progress,
....>>

just my 2 cent of thought
 
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tungfa

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moli
nice, you calling me a troll
whow, beautiful ....>

nobody is asking anybody to engage more on BTCtalk (read the posts above and start typing after)
 

moli

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moli
nice, you calling me a troll
whow, beautiful ....>

nobody is asking anybody to engage more on BTCtalk (read the posts above and start typing after)
No, I am not calling you a troll. But we all should be grownups here. We should have reasonable expectations from others and more expectations from within ourselves. Only children would expect "gimme gimme"... but grownups should act differently. Darkcoin is still in beta, I don't think we should expect it to be perfect. Most of the people in the darkcoin team are volunteers who have other real life obligations and a family. They do the best they can to make this project work. The least the "community" can do is try to understand. I think this project is awesome, has the best team, has the best democratic, open policy where they let people participate in the testings... I hope you have or will participate in their testing next time to see for yourself where darkcoin is going and get some understanding, you don't have to be technical as I am not. And you will get to know your devs better, I hope.
 

tungfa

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No, I am not calling you a troll. But we all should be grownups here.
I am not sure what you are reading, I just translate this for you one more time
There is no "gimme gimme" in my posts
it is about
Communication !
(pm me if you wanna discuss this further)
 

moli

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I am not sure what you are reading, I just translate this for you one more time
There is no "gimme gimme" in my posts
it is about
Communication !
(pm me if you wanna discuss this further)
I'm not sure what you mean about "communication". What more do you expect from the darkcoin team? Everything is available to find on DCT and Jira. It's not that hard to read through these resources. If you want to know more about Darksend, do some testing. Testnet is still open. Have a technical question? Post your question and flare or someone will help you out.