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InstantX/InstantSend

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by camosoul, Jun 13, 2016.

  1. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    This branding still doesn't work.

    Every crypto has Instant Send. I send any BitClone, and it's sent instantly.

    It's just not locked instantly. It waits for blockchain.

    Calling it InstantSend in no way describes this as being any different. InstandSend? So? Everything is InstantSend? What? Why say this? It makes no sense? Are you trying to imply that BitClones aren't instantly sent? Because they are... See the problem?

    DarkSend == PrivateSend

    InstantX != InstantSend
    InstantX == SecureSend

    This emphasizes the the benefit in the brand name itself, and encourages use.

    BitClones' sends are instant, but not secure. SecureSend with DASH, is.

    SecureSend tells people why they should give a shit.
    InstantSend only confuses people and makes them wonder why you're emphasizing something that is already true of even the most defective crypto...
     
  2. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    SecureSend makes me think normal TX aren't as secure as this type, just food for thought.

    I do agree thought instantX and or instantsend might be a wierd misguided name...

    I feel as if the goal of IX was to make cryptos compete with the speed of credit cards and or cash, so to me it has validity as I'm very aware how slow most cryptos actually are, even though alot of them say they are instant. Just my take on things though.
     
  3. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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  4. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Instapoof?
     
  5. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    proof of receipt...
     
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  6. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    ...saying, it's not that the sending is instant, maybe more accurate to say it is received and confirmed instantly
     
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  7. halso

    halso Active Member

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    Stick with the original - InstantX
     
  8. crowning

    crowning Well-known Member

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    Whenever something (a crypto-currency, a function, a button, a first-born, ...) has a name, and even more so when an existing name is changed, there's lot's of discussion about it, and it's often quite hard to find consensus.
    I see a growing market for a wallet with user-definable names in the future... [​IMG]
     
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  9. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    I'm being serious, guys... The name needs to resemble what it actually does in a clear way. Currently, it's confusing, even misleading, to the point of being troll bait...

    "SecureSend" was just a suggestion. The transition from InstantX to InstantSend is already done, if you're watching the testnet thread... And it's confusing to the point of being misleading.

    I'm pointing out the problem, not necessarily naming what I said as the solution...

    LockSend?
    TransLock? Eh, sounds like a gender-confused prison...
    TXLock?

    Again, as with the multisession mixing being tested... I figure it would become the default method...? I figure, eventually, it won't be anything more than "That's just how DASH works" and isn't an add-on feature with a checkbox. It's only optional for testing?

    Needs clarity. Both in implementation, and what it's called.

    Every BitClone already has InstantSend. That's not the part of it that we care about, but that's what it's named...
     
    #9 camosoul, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
  10. HinnomTX

    HinnomTX Active Member

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    I liked InstantX. A unique name for a unique feature.
     
  11. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    I disagree that the term "InstantSend" is misleading. A regular transaction is not instantly locked by nodes, and therefore cannot be considered fully confirmed until you achieve the six confirmations required. As such, it could not be considered instant in that sense. An InstantSend transaction, locked by nodes, can be considered a done deal as soon as you hit "Send". Therefore, the term is a perfect description of what is actually happening.

    And to make the two actions, PrivateSend and InstantSend, similar creates a more streamlined, easier to understand UX. I received lots of positive comments on Twitter about this change, with more than a few people saying that it makes more sense.
     
  12. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I guess we could attract a whole new community with TransLock and TransPrivates..
     
  13. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    I still prefer InstantSend. Yes we do want to convey that it is a secure zero-confirmation txn, but there isn't really a succinct way to say that, at least not that I've heard. At the end of the day the users just care that whatever is going on under the hood, they can do whatever they need to do instantly.
     
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  14. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    But it is instantly sent. Does the wallet not show -X.xxxx in red, instantly?

    You need to look at it from the perspective of an outsider. All crypto has instant send.

    From the user perspective, debit cards are instant, too... but not from the vendor's perspective. It isn't settled for months....

    The cluelessness of those who don't consider the vendor are exactly why crypto isn't taking hold but with a few. If yu want the center of the bell curve to accept crypto, you have to think about more than gimmie gimmie gimmie.

    You understand incentivizing MNs, right?

    If you can't even name the thing after it's function, who's going to see the incentive? After you explain it 20 times? You thin the center of the bell curve has that much of an attention span?

    The name has to describe the function, at least a little.

    It currently does not. It even incites "uh, why are you claiming that InstantSend is special when everything is instant?" Those who do start to learn immediately think you're being a scammer.

    You need to emphasize the part that's actually different and better.

    Why would you even get a second glance after doing that? You're driving people away. Only the most hardcore of nerds even notices DASH now.

    How are you going to differentiate when you advertise sameness as if it's special? Why would a vendor do anything but roll their eyes and say "oh, another one of those computer ponzi fake money things."

    Sure, there are people who won't pay attention. But you're deliberately turning away those who do think even just a little bit...

    Even simply person to person... There's nothing that tells a person that DASH lets you hit the button and walk away, and not have to worry about "confirmations."

    You're pissing on your own best feature, and would rather argue about it than do something about it.
     
  15. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    InstantX at least made people ask "WTF does that mean?" and then go find out... I'll give it that. It was also a pretty neat play on the TX terminology. It was catchy that way. But, only to nerds who understood what "TXID" meant...

    I agree that it needed a rename. But, InstantSend is several steps backwards instead of forwards.

    LockSend?
    SecureSend?
    TXLock?

    Something that actually suggests there's a difference that matters to somebody.

    InstantX made people at least ask "WTF is that?" and go find out, maybe.

    With InstantSend, we're deliberately trolling ourselves...

    "Everything has InstantSend. Even Debit Cards and Cash. So why is it so special that DASH has that, too? So does every BitClone. Oh, you meant to say that it instantly locks the transaction. You mean BitCoin doesn't do that? Really? I never knew, everybody I talk to says it's Libertarian over the Internet money that government isn't a part of, never mentions that Bitcoin has any serious flaws like this, and I never bothered to learn anything else about it... You mean DogeCoina nd LitCoin have it, too? Eh, sounds like you're just attacking other coins to pump your own... I still don't understand because I have no idea how my iPhone works, either, and I'll probably never bother to educate myself about anything, ever. I'm so glad that I spent all this time trying to figure it out and still don't know shit." Said nobody, ever.

    "LockSend? As opposed to what? WTF!? Double-spend? You mean NONE of these other forms of payment are actually locked in? Not even Bitcoin? Or any BitClone? No wonder retailers hate it! It's like setting yourself up to give away free stuff! Oh, so that's what confirmations are. Holy crap, that's such a terrible way to do things! I had no idea! Thanks for making it obvious that DASH is different. DASH's way makes way more sense! I may not fully understand it, but I get the idea!" Says most people.
     
    #15 camosoul, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
  16. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    The problem with "SecureSend" is that it carries the implication that regular transactions are not secure, which is also not a great way to advertise the product. "LockSend" has potential, but to the layman it still doesn't convey the instantaneousness of the transaction. I think we are at the mercy of the English language here, and for the vast majority, "InstantSend" conveys the best (maybe not perfectly) of what the transaction in this way actually is.
     
  17. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Another point to add: With Evolution we may not be even needing these terms anymore, so they are very much placeholders, maybe not worth the trouble of long debate over.
     
  18. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    They're not! I see nothing wrong with implying the truth.
    There is still going to have to be a description of it somewhere... What makes DASH good for retail? The feature still needs a name that accurately describes how it's better than BitClones, even if it's the default and transparent to the average derp. Those who are betting the farm on it are going to want an explanation.
    Can't see the forest with all these damn trees in the way...

    No, it doesn't. In fact, it completely avoids mentioning the concept of locking transactions, while describing a feature (instant) that all crypto has and is expected by default... They're all instant, so why is this even being said? If I send bitcoins, that TX is instantly in the (insecure) memory pool. That's how it is. Before Evan invented IX and MNs, DASH did that, too. It still can if you don't check the IX box... Totally instant! Even in --litemode.

    Why name it something that doesn't have anything at all to do with what it is and what it does? The English Language has more synonyms than all other languages on Earth put together. I'm sure we can bust out the ol' Thesaurus and come up with something. Point of irony; Thesaurus has no synonyms.

    If I named a Waffle Iron "Septic Tank," it would be somewhat confusing to someone who has no idea what a Waffle Iron or a Septic Tank are... And those that do know, have to ask why I would do something so stupid... All it does is generate confusion, and make people wonder why the word "waffle" wasn't involved in a thing that is specifically designed for making waffles. Do you want to eat waffles that come out of the "Septic Tank?" Oh, it's just a brand name, not an actual septic tank... It actually means something completely different than what we named it... I swear! No poo in your waffle!

    Why make this hard?
     
    #18 camosoul, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
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  19. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Personally, the more I think of it the more I like LockSend actually (and LS as an abbreviation is also slightly better than IS imo).... hmmm..... probably because it's more accurate technically (because that's what actually is going on - tx inputs are locked so that no other tx can use them as its input for some period of time) and I'm a tech guy, you know ;) but is it descriptive enough for normal user? :confused:
     
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  20. Bridgewater

    Bridgewater Well-known Member
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    Forgive my ignorance, but is there a reason we cannot have all transactions be spendlock/locksend/quickconfirm/lock'n'send/instawhateverX by default? That way, there's no need to name it except in marketing materials, as it is a default function of the coin itself (which would makes the marketing easier and more honest, imo). We could still have the old-fashioned way of spending be available as an advanced option.
     
  21. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Brain Dev is Best Dev. :p

    Given the new definition of "normal," nothing is going to help that user. I'm talking about the people who actually think, at least a little. You know, VENDORS. Who have already done the research and know that crypto is not for them because transactions are not secured. Quit thinking that the dumbest of the dumb is the only person you need to worry about. You could call it DickButtTittySend and it'd be all the same to morons...

    There is nothing that will be descriptive enough as a one-word brand name. ell, that's the definition of branding a function... You're not trying to explain it all perfectly in one word. But, you can do yourself a favor and NOT steer them down the WRONG road on purpose...

    Emphasize it in a way that has appeal... We've got 9 years of BitClones. Everybody who has looked at it knows there's no transaction security. We're not talking about end users. We're talking about vendors. This is the point of contention. This is the point where BitCoins are vendor-hostile, and DASH is not. You might want to, you know, mention it! Give it a name that warrants a reason for vendors to say "Oh, so someone finally fixed that fatal flaw we've been screaming about for almost a decade, we can use this crypto stuff now!"

    Crypto is self-absorbed. They're idiot socialists. They have no idea where their free stuff comes from, or the needs of those suppliers. Even if you're paying with Food Stamps or EBT, the person being paid expects to actually get paid! All cryptotards think about is the user experience, because it is born of a generation of people who have no idea that commerce isn't just you buying crap at a convenience store. If you don't support the infrastructure behind that top-level, then nobody is going to use it. IX was written specifically for this! SAY SO! Holy shit! It's THE thing that matters! I said this years ago! Pay attention! It won't matter how slick your user experience is, if you fail to realize that "user" includes Vendors, and their experience FUCKING SUCKS! No matter how loud they scream it, socialists don't listen, because socialists don't care. They don't give a shit if the vendor actually gets that money, they swiped their card and walked away. It was free government tax money anyhow, so what? The Vendor experience with crypto is ABSOLUTE SHIT! You might want to mention the thing that changes all that, oh, and DASH has it...

    I've been harping on this since the Miami Debacle FOR A REASON. Nobody involved in this projects seems to understand that Vendors are "users" too. Absolutely no effort at all is put into the Vendor Experience, because no participating party, from the devs to the trolls, has any clue what business is or how it operates. You're catering to what you understand. I get it. Am I the only one who has any experience in actual get-shit-done Industry? No wonder absolutely no one in Crypto sees the gaping hole I keep talking about... The blind leading the blind. Even with that cool new plugin (which My MNs upvoted), I still don't have DASH on my website... Because the plugin was written from the perspective of someone who just doesn't get it, even when given feedback... I'd love to accept DASH, but the Vendor Experience is still completely butt-fucked-terrible. I realize it's being neglected simply because nobody involved has the first damn clue that vendors matter. Why would a socialist think of it? It's like explaining a rainbow to someone born without eyes.... Light? Color? I've never heard of this, ignore this crazy guy! We all know there's no such thing!

    Think of it this way... You're telling people that DASH IS EXACTLY THE SAME, which deprives them of any motivation to then do research to find out that it's different... If I told you that this new product I'm peddling offers no benefits of any kind, but then buried deep in a whitepaper somewhere, you mention how fundamentally awesome it is, and that it's actually not the same at all.... See the problem?

    It's about moving them in the right direction, nothing more. The current method moves them in the wrong direction, then has a defintion that jerks them in a totally different direction.

    I'll put it in a real-life example. Since the beginning of there being a government in the State of Floriduh, Motorcycles required no special license. In the span of one year, they took it to the opposite extreme. Not only was a special endorsement required, they took NOT having the endorsement past that of a ticket, all the way to being a criminal offense. Now, after having been told my whole life that there's nothing special I need to do, suddenly, I'm a criminal! I get arrested for not having an endorsement on my license that I've been told my entire life doesn't even exist. I presented the Judge with the following argument. "I realize ignroance is no defense; but I am not ignorant. I have been advised that there is nothing special I need to do by the very entity which is now calling me a criminal, for something I've been doing for many years. Malicious Intent comes to mind." The Judge saw it my way. Charges dismissed on the condition that I get the endorsement within 60 days.

    The bottom line; people don't ask questions to which they already have the answer. Do you do research to find out how old you are? You already know. Of course not.

    If the name of the feature emphasizes something we already know... Why are we advertising a non-benefit? But, then, in reality, it does something completely different... It puts people off of asking any questions about it, while simultaneously making DASH look stupid for advertising something that every other crypto has already...

    LockSend. UpYourButtSend... It really doesn't matter if it's not quite right. Even if it's something totally off the wall, bizarre tells you nothing and forces you to ask a question. But, deliberately misdirecting your own advertised feature with a name that undermines it... Holy crap, are you kidding me? I'm not barking about finding a better name. I'm barking about finding a name that's not self-destructive to the purpose... Call it SuperTittyFuckinSend if you want, at least that makes someone wonder what the hell it means, instead of giving a false description that shuts off all curiosity and makes DASH look stupid...

    I may be known for hyperbole, but it seems that's what it takes to get the message across...
    That's the plan, my man. Eventually. It's been stated already that Evolution will be this way. But, much like multisession mixing, it's a flaged feature right now, until it becomes proven reliable enough to be mainstream.

    DASH is not a copy of Bitcoin. You don't just fork and call it a day "oh, the original code was stable." DASH has way too much of what is missing from BitClones. All fresh, being written as we speak.

    We are experiencing the process of evolving. These feature adds, Masternodes themselves, are completely new things. They need testing. Both on testnet, and in the wild. One piece proven at a time until it can be made default. The features being added are much more complicated than the entire bitcoin code base was in the first place. Many coins graft a nifty little idea onto bitcoin. Like grafting a leaf onto a tree. DASH is going the opposite direction. DASH is grafting an entire rainforest onto a weed, and trying to keep as much of it backwards compatible as possible. The things being added on, not only have never been done before, but are actually much bigger and more complex than the thing onto which they are being added. It would have taken 20 Satoshis to come up with Masternodes. Which is why Bitcoin doesn't have this.

    Scope and Magnitude. DASH is fucking huge. You can't just throw these things out there like BitClones do. It's not that simple.

    Speaking of... MNs are going to experience a huge increase in resource demand. This 50/50 split ain't going to be worth it come Evolution, unless DASH is worth at least as much ad Bitcoin is right now. And we know that's not going to happen, too many stupid people who have no idea what the problems are, much less that DASH has the solutions. It's only by vendor adoption that DASH will gain market share. You've got the feature set. Stop being hostile to vendors! It's your only hope! It's the road no other crypto can travel. It's the road DASH was made to travel. Why continue to shovel shit down it?

    I'm still convinced that the new metrics that exist in the network could be used to dispose of mining. Remember, back to ye olde CPU mining of BTC? The word on the street was that the price was dictated by demand. Truly detached, fee economy and value structure. Then the story changed, the price is dictated by how much it costs to pump electrons into your ASIC... DASH could take crypto back to it's roots.

    It's entirely possible to make a peer to peer version of IX. If that makes it to market first, the "performance" of using MNs to be a few seconds faster will be precisely dick. You'll have thrown away your own advantage by failing to capitalize. Being a bunch of socialists, nobody seems to realize that this matters.
     
    #21 camosoul, Jun 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  22. raze

    raze King of the Morlocks
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    Just call it what it is: "Transaction Lock". No need to have cheesy marketing buzzwords for every feature. For the uninitiated, add a little help balloon pop-up or link next to it that explains briefly what it does.
     
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