Everything You Want to Know About Coinfirm's Dash Integration for AML/KYC Compliance

tungfa

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Everything You Want to Know About Coinfirm's Dash Integration for AML/KYC Compliance

 
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fible1

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I think it was a good interview, but I would like to have heard the question regarding who else CoinFirm supports answered.

As always, great job Amanda.

Pablo.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Since the stupid Legal proposals started and now this, the price of dash has been steadily going down. The core team are working on things like this when no one voted for it! Why are we supporting the core team to work on things like this when they should be working on more important things, like enhancing dash's fungibility. We must de-fund the core team.

We're now in a situation where a gambling site, for example, can refuse dash that went through a mixing process. Now, I understand the counter-argument to this; that such a site would never accept monero, for example, because monero's primary aim is to be untraceable. But equally, it's entirely possible that 90%+ of retailers will also refuse to accept mixed funds.

It's not just gambling sites. How about smoke detectors (radioactive materials), fertilisers (bomb making) and paper shredders (must have something to hide), all bought with dash and judged as a potential risk.

Additionally, although ShapeShift was not specifically named, I assume that they are indeed in bed with Coinfirm. Oh, now the bitcoin (or alt) on the otherside of my shifting is also being tracked by Coinfirm. Hmmm, might as well just stick with bitcoin, right?
 

GrandMasterDash

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First of all, here is the original Warsaw proposal that was voted for by MNOs. It was at this meeting that Robert Wiecko ("kot") coincidentally just happen to meet Coinfirm's Pawel Kuskowski. You'll notice there is no mention of compliance and, indeed, no follow-up proposal to work on the integration with Coinfirm. The catch-all funding for the core team is paying for this work.

https://www.dashcentral.org/p/warsaw-conf-aug2016

You should also be aware that Coinfirm have a two-way relationship with Bisnode, whom in turn have customers like Vodafone and Forbo Siegling where credit checks and risk assessments are made on customers. This means big data is being used to analyse and track customers and payments.

https://www.bisnode.com/international/news-and-inspiration/cases/vodafone--db-hungary/

https://www.bisnode.com/international/news-and-inspiration/cases/forbo--hoppenstedt-360/

And finally, I want to point people to these interviews with Evan Duffield:

https://medium.com/@simon/the-bright-side-of-darkcoin-a923facddc3c#.w1boqumbz

"I believe the central problem with Bitcoin is that the public ledger, although a remarkable accomplishment, also allows a gross invasion of personal privacy by permanently listing all transactions the users have ever done publicly. I would imagine many groups are working to tie the addresses used to real identities and then following the money around to see what is happening with it.

There was also a lot of talk recently about tainting coins to check and see if they’re “clean” (note: he means colored coins). I believe that all coins should be considered equal and you shouldn’t mess with the fungibility of the coins themselves."

https://www.coingecko.com/buzz/interview-evan-duffield-dash

"How do you make a stable environment for it without losing fungibility of the individual coins? How do they expose users to privacy-invasive situations and things like that. I was watching and waiting for the Bitcoin team to do something about the fungibility issue but it never happened.
....
With Bitcoin, every transaction is traceable back to the coinbase transaction. What that means is that the coinbase is where the actual coins were created - that's when the miner mined them originally and then they start this path through the network from user to user. You can follow this procession and if at any point a user is identified as owning a specific address it suddenly means that anything they do after that is traceable. If you can identify one of the other addresses after it, you know that they did business with that person. The closer that those two transactions are, the more likely this happened.

Eventually a lot of these addresses and users are going to be identified. There will be companies selling these data, which is an invasion of privacy and no one wants a system that is susceptible to those types of attacks especially with a global ledger on the internet."
 

t0dd

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Since the stupid Legal proposals started and now this, the price of dash has been steadily going down.
Really? It's been flat for quite some time. And was at $7 to $8 USD for a very long time. Not sure what you are talking about. If you are comparing to the bitcoin price, that has just bounced up. So...

As for integration of various services. Folks are reaching out and helping others integrate with Dash. This doesn't change how Dash works in the least, so I am not sure what you are griping about. Or am I missing something fundamental here? I don't think I am though.
 
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100-yard

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Honestly I'm having real trouble reconciling this new partnership with Dash's laudable goal of creating a truly fungible unit.
If I sell bananas to a total stranger for tainted (i.e. private sent) Dash do I need to check with those guys first, or do I just
accept the risk? ... and what precisely is the source of this risk?
 

tungfa

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Honestly I'm having real trouble reconciling this new partnership with Dash's laudable goal of creating a truly fungible unit.
If I sell bananas to a total stranger for tainted (i.e. private sent) Dash do I need to check with those guys first, or do I just
accept the risk? ... and what precisely is the source of this risk?
no
the banana seller could check with them what is going on.

In general this comes down to (example) exchanges, big merchants,.... and the likes
if they are confused or are wondering about logitech of Dash or PS or IS than they can talk to them and get "legal" feedback !
 

100-yard

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no
the banana seller could check with them what is going on.

In general this comes down to (example) exchanges, big merchants,.... and the likes
if they are confused or are wondering about logitech of Dash or PS or IS than they can talk to them and get "legal" feedback !
Tungfa, I understand that this is for the big guys, but it still seems to me to be a step away from fungibility. Fungibility is one of the things Dash got right, and bitcoin didn't.
 

bertlebbert

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I was surprised to learn from this interview that in addition to providing information to exchanges, Coinfirm also receives information from exchanges. He (Pawell Kuskowsk) didn't expand on that, but it makes me wonder how much info about transactions/clients does Polo actually divulge (and voluntarily so) to Coinfirm... and to any other private firm.
 
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tungfa

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Tungfa, I understand that this is for the big guys, but it still seems to me to be a step away from fungibility. Fungibility is one of the things Dash got right, and bitcoin didn't.
this is no step back
this is NOT code related !

this provides customers , merchants , business partners the possiblility to get legal advice on what they are trying to do with dash related to their company / business (nothing else )
i approach multiple exchanges to adopt dash , some took us others didn't because of fear 'doing anything illegal'
now / then we can just use this service to provide the legal advice / paperwork to these (example) exachanges who were affraid of illegal activities and prove them wrong

crypto in general and specially anon coins are still a terrible complicated (by law) thing ! companies and businesses like this help with translating to general businesses what is going on and where do you stand legal if you get involved ! this is super important as mass adoption (crypto in general) is still key to success but for that we need a legal leg to stand on !
that does not mean anything in the code will change - we are who we are and we do what we do - but we have to translate that in legal terms to "civilians" (outside crypto people) and propably even crypto guys - as most have no idea what we do and what that means in legal terms ! that is all
 

tungfa

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I was surprised to learn from this interview that in addition to providing information to exchanges, Coinfirm also receives information from exchanges. He (Pawell Kuskowsk) didn't expand on that, but it makes me wonder how much info about transactions/clients does Polo actually divulge (and voluntarily so) to Coinfirm... and to any other private firm.
no idea tbh
but , there are a ton of companies out there already analysing blockchains (ours and others - big business obviously )
 

bertlebbert

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no idea tbh
but , there are a ton of companies out there already analysing blockchains (ours and others - big business obviously )
For sure, and when Amanda asked how does Coinfirm make their analysis and attempt to assess risk, as expected he mentions the 'blockchain', and 'the internet', but then he also adds 'from exchanges'. That surprised me :eek:
 

tungfa

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For sure, and when Amanda asked how does Coinfirm make their analysis and attempt to assess risk, as expected he mentions the 'blockchain', and 'the internet', but then he also adds 'from exchanges'. That surprised me :eek:
sure
but exchanges provide propably more info than we know or imagine and nothing we can do about anyway , right !
except - keep mixing and using new addresses :rolleyes:
 

bertlebbert

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"...and nothing we can do about anyway , right !"
Well, actually for myself, what I can do is 'govern my activities accordingly'

and @tungfa...
I sense from your replies to both my posts above that you feel you need to defend the Coinfirm arrangement, which is not necessary as I'm not criticizing or attacking it at all. :)
 
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tungfa

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"...and nothing we can do about anyway , right !"
Well, actually for myself, what I can do is 'govern my activities accordingly'

and @tungfa...
I sense from your replies to both my posts above that you feel you need to defend the Coinfirm arrangement, which is not necessary as I'm not criticizing or attacking it at all. :)
no worries
i am not defending , just trying to explain as much as i understand (as there seem to be many misunderstandings )

i 100% agree with "govern your activities ..."
 

GrandMasterDash

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Really? It's been flat for quite some time. And was at $7 to $8 USD for a very long time. Not sure what you are talking about. If you are comparing to the bitcoin price, that has just bounced up. So...

As for integration of various services. Folks are reaching out and helping others integrate with Dash. This doesn't change how Dash works in the least, so I am not sure what you are griping about. Or am I missing something fundamental here? I don't think I am though.
All you got to do is go to coinmarketcap and look at chartts for the last two months, it's not that hard.

That "helping out" has a huge social impact. You don't know or care how big data is used to profiled people, their contacts and behaviour? Perhaps you missed the part that these companies are conspiring, creating two-way alliances and profiling you. And every person you transact with automatically comes under their radar. This means, the government starts to take more interest in you because of someone else's transaction. Yes, these type of powers are routinely used with banking and dash has well and truly joined the group of people that think the war on cash is perfectly acceptable.

When people and transactions are mapped and plugged into AI, it causes people to change their behaviour. Are we here to support that? When you live in a country where abortion is illegal and frowned upon, that maybe the sale of alcohol is refused because that person (or an acquaintance) recently bought a pregnancy test.

Mixing coins becomes problematic and creates a one-way street. Once you mix the coins, suddenly your options for spending become limited, because a growing list of people will refuse to accept them.

Dash is not "digital cash" because it is failing in fugibility.
 

tungfa

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All you got to do is go to coinmarketcap and look at chartts for the last two months, it's not that hard.

That "helping out" has a huge social impact. You don't know or care how big data is used to profiled people, their contacts and behaviour? Perhaps you missed the part that these companies are conspiring, creating two-way alliances and profiling you. And every person you transact with automatically comes under their radar. This means, the government starts to take more interest in you because of someone else's transaction. Yes, these type of powers are routinely used with banking and dash has well and truly joined the group of people that think the war on cash is perfectly acceptable.

When people and transactions are mapped and plugged into AI, it causes people to change their behaviour. Are we here to support that? When you live in a country where abortion is illegal and frowned upon, that maybe the sale of alcohol is refused because that person (or an acquaintance) recently bought a pregnancy test.

Mixing coins becomes problematic and creates a one-way street. Once you mix the coins, suddenly your options for spending become limited, because a growing list of people will refuse to accept them.

Dash is not "digital cash" because it is failing in fugibility.
all that had NOTHING to do with this program !+ remember that that blockchain is open for analyses from anybody , and trust me they are working it since day one
you do not wanna be analysed ? better get offline then :rolleyes:
 

kot

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Hey Gyus, I think that you are missing few important points here.
1. Coinfirm is a 3rd party vendor and has nothing to do with Dash fungiblity, privacy or protocol. Dash is not changing in any way to accommodate this.
2. They have been doing their business before and will be doing as our partner or without us. And there will be even more similar companies on the market.
3. Our blockchain is public and simply exposes all of this information. By working with them we could be sure that they understand properly what is Dash and it's functionalities. In my opinion it is much better than simply hoping that these companies will interpret Dash blockchain information how we want. Being proactive is usually much better idea than reactive waiting and hoping that the others will do our job.
4. This service is dedicated to the companies which require AML as a part their business. I believe that banana sellers are not part of this group ;)
5. This is not free of charge service (only current demo is free as far as I know) - therefore I would not expect massive usage of this (by banana sellers :p) .

Considering the above, it is important to understand that Coinfirm customers will be the companies who already have AML services. They simply offer cheaper option to them.
 

GrandMasterDash

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all that had NOTHING to do with this program !+ remember that that blockchain is open for analyses from anybody , and trust me they are working it since day one
you do not wanna be analysed ? better get offline then :rolleyes:
You know, that's a pretty lame argument because you've completely ignored - not my words - but the words of Evan himself. This issue has everything to do with Coinfirm because, I'm sure you know, elsewhere on the forums there are people asking for more robust fungibility e.g. Shadowcash technology etc. And thus, we should be spending less time defending Coinfirm and more effort re-enforcing dash's overall privacy.

I have no idea why people such as yourself are going out of their way to defend the actions of companies such as Coinfirm. Even if you're just accepting such reality, why defend it?
 

GrandMasterDash

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Hey Gyus, I think that you are missing few important points here.
1. Coinfirm is a 3rd party vendor and has nothing to do with Dash fungiblity, privacy or protocol. Dash is not changing in any way to accommodate this.
Then why are the core team expending resources to help them integrate dash when a) no one voted on such action, and b) the core team could be spending their resources on improving dash's fungibility?

2. They have been doing their business before and will be doing as our partner or without us. And there will be even more similar companies on the market.
All the more reason why core should be spending less time helping them and more time re-enforcing fungibility.

3. Our blockchain is public and simply exposes all of this information. By working with them we could be sure that they understand properly what is Dash and it's functionalities. In my opinion it is much better than simply hoping that these companies will interpret Dash blockchain information how we want. Being proactive is usually much better idea than reactive waiting and hoping that the others will do our job.
Yes, and with time, people have increasingly realised that the sudo-anonymity of bitcoin like blockchains are increasingly being eroded. Dash was forked from bitcoin exactly for this reason. Now people like you are defending such behaviour and calling it normal and acceptable instead of actively looking for ways to improve fungibility. If this is the case, we might as well remove the Private Send function. It was made clear that mixing would influence future transactions.

4. This service is dedicated to the companies which require AML as a part their business. I believe that banana sellers are not part of this group ;)
And so you believe dash core should expend it's efforts and actively engage with such companies instead of encouraging liberalised decentralised alternatives. The overreach of government is exactly why people turned to crypto. AML / KYC is a two-way street and affects both spenders and receivers. Yes, implicating innocent banana sellers because someone else's transactions has put them on an overreaching law enforcement radar.

5. This is not free of charge service (only current demo is free as far as I know) - therefore I would not expect massive usage of this (by banana sellers :p)

Considering the above, it is important to understand that Coinfirm customers will be the companies who already have AML services. They simply offer cheaper option to them.
Banana seller got paid with mixed funds. He didn't use Coinfirm as it's not a free of charge service. Later, after signing up with Vodafone, his calls were intercepted because a risk assessment gave them the excuse they needed.

It's one thing to say they will do this anyway, but it's another thing to actively assist them. But then again, it's not surprising you're a willing party to this considering your background is in AML / KYC. And we're meant to believe your encounter with Coinfirm was purely by chance? Such a lovely synergy you have with them.
 

100-yard

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... I believe that banana sellers are not part of this group ;)
Banana sellers are not yet part of this [AML/KYC] group, but they probably should be.

Imagine I'm selling my bananas to total strangers, people I know absolutely nothing about. Unfortunately for me it turns
out that one of these buyers is actually a <insert the most totally evil human behavior you can possibly imagine here>.
(such that in fact if I knew this I'd probably literally run away! I don't know, so I sell my bananas and the evil buyer leaves.)

At the end of the day I'll try to deposit my banana sales proceeds with <insert Coinfirm's most important client here>.
This is not going to turn out well. (Best case: I lose my bananas. Worst case: I lose a lot more than bananas.)

... people have increasingly realised that the sudo-anonymity of bitcoin like blockchains are increasingly being eroded. Dash was forked from bitcoin exactly for this reason. ...

... It's one thing to say they will do this anyway, but it's another thing to actively assist them. ...
I agree completely, and that was very well said.
 
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kot

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@100-yard - a hint for you: if you are not sure with whom you are dealing with and you don't want to check it by yourself, use PrivateSend option in the wallet so you will not lose any of your bananas.
This is why it is implemented there.
 

GrandMasterDash

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@100-yard - a hint for you: if you are not sure with whom you are dealing with and yo udon't want to check it by yourself, use PrivateSend option in the wallet so you will not lose any of your bananas.
So once he's accepted PrivateSend for his bananas and then wants to use that money... phone contract (involves credit check), to an exchange (possibly marked as proceeds from criminal activity), or to a family member (whom in turn maybe marked as possibly money laundering). It's not about a single transaction, it's about the history, that some coins / transactions are considered cleaner than others.

How can dash possibly claim to be "digital cash" when sudo-anonymity on the block chain is being ripped from it's roots. Coinfirm and it's conspiring partners are effectively labelling users of Private Send as potential criminals. AND YOU SUPPORT THEM.

I have absolutely NO IDEA why you would deny such basic facts, and more so considering your background in AML / KYC. Personally, I think you're a cancer to the dash project and you're here to derail things. Why else would you defend AML / KYC so staunchly instead of challenging Evan directly with his own words regarding fungibility? Better still, let's summon here and see what he's got to say about it... @eduffield
 

GrandMasterDash

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The core team have a choice - some might say a responsibility - to use their time and resources to either defend dash's blockchain from an increasingly aggressive AML / KYC invasion, or assist companies like Coinfirm so that end users are tracked and ostracised from Private Send transactions.

No one ever voted for the core team to assist Coinfirm in such affairs. That's something everyone here should be concerned with.
 

GrandMasterDash

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First of all, an apology to @kot for my personal attack. I stand by my criticisms of the way in which the core team willfully perverted dash's privacy. However, I was wrong to personalise so much.

Many here will remember how Evan once held a vote to increase the block size. The vote was more symbolic than anything because, as you know, we can't compel people to do something they don't want. By holding the vote, Evan was demonstrating the budget system and allowing MNOs to express their wishes going forward.

The fundamental idea behind dash's budget system is to allows the project to grow and evolve in a fair and transparent manner. If, however, core team members are working on unapproved projects that have a material impact on dash's core functionality - e.g. privacy - then I would say it is very unethical to do so without a vote from MNOs, not least because they could of been directing their efforts elsewhere (strengthening dash's fungibility). The act of willfully assisting Coinfirm is effectively sleeping with the enemy, but in any event should not go ahead without consent from MNOs.
 

t0dd

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All you got to do is go to coinmarketcap and look at charts for the last two months, it's not that hard.
Yup. It's not that hard. Pretty much flat for months and months. Now look at 6 months. A year.

As for big data and profiling and what not. There is nothing that changes the situation already at hand. There is no additional exposure. There is no loss of fungibility. There is no change in privacy.

Every person I transact with with either be public for scrutiny... or not. That's up to me. The safe assumption for anyone is that all of your transactions are under scrutiny. Plan accordingly.

When people and transactions are mapped and plugged into AI, it causes people to change their behaviour. Are we here to support that? When you live in a country where abortion is illegal and frowned upon, that maybe the sale of alcohol is refused because that person (or an acquaintance) recently bought a pregnancy test.
This is not "support". This is acknowledgement of reality. I don't like KYC/AML regulations, but there are going to be entrances and exits into the fiat world that require them.

Mixing coins becomes problematic and creates a one-way street. Once you mix the coins, suddenly your options for spending become limited, because a growing list of people will refuse to accept them.
How has that changed in the slightest?

Anyway. Governments wanting to track transactions is not something I like or am comfortable with (but it will happen / is-happening anyway). That being said... if we want Dash to be used in the world of fiat, we can keep converting to Bitcoin, enter the world of KYC and fiat there. Or we work with 3rd party entities so Dash can be leveraged just as easily in such a manner. But, just like Bitcoin, only if the coin-holder chooses to work within that system.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Yup. It's not that hard. Pretty much flat for months and months. Now look at 6 months. A year.

As for big data and profiling and what not. There is nothing that changes the situation already at hand. There is no additional exposure. There is no loss of fungibility. There is no change in privacy.

Every person I transact with with either be public for scrutiny... or not. That's up to me. The safe assumption for anyone is that all of your transactions are under scrutiny. Plan accordingly.
Re-read what I've been saying instead of changing it. I didn't say 6 months or a year, that's your invention. I said the trend has been downward since the Legal proposals and this stupid Coinfirm arrangement. As I write this post, the price is $10.90. But fine, just sit there and ignore the facts in front of you.

The safe assumption is that privacy is being further eroded with every new partner that Coinfirm conspires with. Companies like Coinfirm go way beyond the scrutiny of a single transaction. They don't just build detailed profiles of you and your transactions, they analyse and join data from many sources. "Plan accordingly" to what exactly? - by the time you've received dash, they've been tainted and their history analysed yet you're not privy to that information because, while the block chain is transparent, Coinfirm themselves are far from transparent... they're not going to open up their data and show you how they connected the dots.

Block chain = public scrutiny, but Coinfirm = secret data and processes.

This is not "support". This is acknowledgement of reality. I don't like KYC/AML regulations, but there are going to be entrances and exits into the fiat world that require them.
....unless you use hard cash, but then again, when hard cash is eradicated, then what? Does dash have the properties worthy of the name "digital cash"? - clearly not.

How has that changed in the slightest?

Anyway. Governments wanting to track transactions is not something I like or am comfortable with (but it will happen / is-happening anyway). That being said... if we want Dash to be used in the world of fiat, we can keep converting to Bitcoin, enter the world of KYC and fiat there. Or we work with 3rd party entities so Dash can be leveraged just as easily in such a manner. But, just like Bitcoin, only if the coin-holder chooses to work within that system.
"just like bitcoin" are the key words here... a lot of users want better privacy, not the same as bitcoin.
 

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The fundamental idea behind dash's budget system is to allows the project to grow and evolve in a fair and transparent manner. If, however, core team members are working on unapproved projects that have a material impact on dash's core functionality - e.g. privacy - then I would say it is very unethical to do so without a vote from MNOs, not least because they could of been directing their efforts elsewhere (strengthening dash's fungibility). The act of willfully assisting Coinfirm is effectively sleeping with the enemy, but in any event should not go ahead without consent from MNOs.
Once again someone argues about unethical. If someone is unethical when doing something, he is only half unethical. There is also the other unethical half part, the ones which allow the unethical person to do what he did. There is nothing really unethical, the core team behaves like that because you, the stupid whales, allowed them to do so.

If you demand them to rewrite the code of dash in a reflective way, and thus let the whales capable to change the code in the runtime by voting the appropriate code plugins, then the core team will never work for unapproved projects again. Because these projects will not get voted and will not run in the runtime, so it will be futile for them to work for such projects.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Once again someone argues about unethical. There is nothing really unethical, the core team behaves like that because you, the stupid whales, allowed them to do so.

If you rewrite the code of dash in a reflective way, and thus let the whales capable to change the code in the runtime by voting the appropriate code plugins, then the core team will never work for unapproved projects again. Because these projects will not get voted and will not run in the runtime, so it will be futile for them to work for such projects.
It's not even that. The solution is to put version control on the MN network and make it immutable, enforcing upgrades through voting, thus doing so with a clear mandate. Funny how all these tech-heads preach the wonders of an immutable block chain for voting yet are totally unwilling to trust their own code to such a mechanism. It's pathetic.
 
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