DASH WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL if it does not solve this Problem

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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I agree that we'd all prefer to *earn* crypto but that isn't spending, it's earning.
Bingo.

You're forced into it.

You'd prefer not to use shitty money if you didn't have to. You'd prefer not to use a shitty anything if you didn't have to.

Of course I want to get rid of the shitty thing first. This is Gresham's Law, basically.

But, if I didn't have a shitty thing in the first place, I wouldn't feel compelled to optimize it's exit from my possession.
 

Cofresí

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Aug 22, 2014
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Here's some wisdom from pragmatic rural Russia: клин клином вышибают, meaning something like 'fight fire with fire', or 'only a diamond cuts a diamond', e.g eating ice-cream to get rid of your cold, or the best way to fight your sex addiction to maybe consider .... I'm half joking of course, but such wisdom has helped me several times. What does all that mean in the context of deflationary DASH sky-rocketing in value being it's own worst enemy when it comes to spending same?

Well what about this: if it were possible to construct a monetary bridge that facilitates not only DASH holders, but simply anybody, to get rid of their shitty money, and in so doing and spending their dirty fiat, at the same time crank up DASH's money velocity by helping exchanging (spending) DASH. The person trying to get rid of his dirty fiat entering the buy-side of the DASH trading market if you will. Then wouldn't that at least partly solve our problem and drive DASH adoption, or at least DASH money velocity and trade volume even more? Possibly. But how should we go about to do that and is it possible at all?

Simple: Enter reverse Purse.io.

Maybe you heard of Purse.io, it's the webpage that allows you to buy stuff on amazon with a 15% discount paying for it in btc. Here's how it works.

To understand how it would work reversed, it helps exchanging the relevant words in that article thusly:

"The company DASH DAO is marketing its service at people who would like to purchase items at Amazon Evo Marketplace using bitcoin Fiat instead of DASH, which the retail giant doesn't yet accept clever merchant wanting only DASH but still seeking a way to remain fiat compatible doesn't want to accept. But integral to its solution are those who want to obtain bitcoin sell DASH using a credit card their favorite exchange, perhaps in areas where exchanges are not available and don't mind that their sell orders can automatically be routed to reverse Purse.io.

By matching these two markets, reverse Purse.io is able to offer bitcoin Fiat purchases on Amazon Evo Marketplace, powered by a kind of bitcoin DASH exchange that uses a buyers' seller's discount in the form of higher liquidity to incentivise bitcoin DASH owners to 'sell' their digital currency.

This process is similar to a peer-to-peer (P2P) marketplace, where reverse Purse.io acts as an intermediary, offering users the platform, bitcoin DASH wallet and escrow for transactions."

Confusing? Ok, so we are going to be using the sell side of the DASH trading markets to buy stuff with DASH directly from DASH accepting merchants (i.e. Evolution marketplace) that still want to be compatible for fiat paying buyers who send their dirty fiat to the DASH seller on such exchange or to the intermediary which runs the account for said seller on the exchange.

It seems that soon we will have all the puzzle pieces in place to enable such reverse purse.io services. If you haven't yet, try to make sense of the Wall of Coins api. As far as I understand it, @rgenito and his boys made it possible for just about anyone to match the sell side (DASH for fiat seller) with the buy side (Fiat seller, goods buyer) in their system. The clever, only DASH accepting still fiat compatible merchant would be in the middle of those two buyers/sellers, essentially buying DASH himself by sending his goods to the goods buyer (fiat seller), once the DASH for fiat seller or the automatic system that monitors his exchange account has given green light and cleared the bank wire or WU or whatever fiat transfer.

http://genitrust.github.io/woc-reference-client/htdocs/buy.html
http://genitrust.github.io/woc-reference-client/htdocs/sell.html

The difficulty in this is to find the proper balance of interests on all three sides. And the time lag of fiat transfers. DAPI and incentive programs from the DASH DAO could help here. Maybe 15% discount as used in purse.io's model will turn out to be too great a discount for the clever DASH accepting still fiat compatible merchants to go by in exchange for the privilege to be paid in DASH and being able to dodge all the hassle of direct fiat acceptance. But that is for the market to decide. What can be predicted with some confidence is that there will be such a discount for DASH payments in relation to the same goods in the fiat world. Maybe that is all it would take to set this shitty money recycling feedback loop into motion.
 
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camosoul

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Sep 19, 2014
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I'm itchin' to spend my DASH. But, there's nowhere to do it... Still.
 

lynx

Active Member
Dec 11, 2015
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Simple: Enter reverse Purse.io.
Yeah, that sounds nice, but I have to agree with camo, we have to have vendors who accept Dash as an option before they would want to accept it exclusively (how would they pay for their inputs?).
 

shoggoth

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Mar 4, 2017
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Tok, actually what you are saying in your post seems to me like a 1:1 reflection of BTCs path, correct?
I think we both share the conviction that BTC will be a kind of gold (asset, store of value, what ever one calls it) and there will be the "run" for who will be the "currency" - and as I understand Amanda and Tao - this is what DASH (core & foundation & EvanD) want to be?

If so let me "take off from my runway and try to catch you in air":

In a certain way, it seems the "deflationary core" of cryptos may be an issue you identified - I had this question at my (late) start with Cryptos - everybody kept writing/talking about the "limited amount" and hoe cool that is/was, but no one seemed to consider the issues involved (or I do not understand):

1. "Positive" in cryptos terms: It is limited=deflationary, stupid:

Then it becomes a system like feudalism (medieval times) as it is the only period of history I can spontaneously think about where a limited resource (then land, now coins) was spun out (mostly due to support in wars, call it "proof-of-loyalty")..kind of the miners/MNs work, today)...

You could then compare the inventors/creators of a currency to the king, the early adopters/miners//core team/MNs as the aristocracy/clergy (was the same then...) "owning" the land due to the contract (sharing) of the creator(s) and the rest as ... the peasants/farmers...sharing somehow the land (MNs) with the aristocracy, but having to pay at least a tenth back visibly or more invisibly to it and/or be at their (aristocracy) sub-contracts will...

2. Negative crypto terms: Not unlimited, stupid:

I remember how excited I was when I first read about the "Satoshi" - a 1/100,000,000st of a BTC. How cool is that? Micropayment goes pica-payment and more...all "creator-copyright-use" issues of the digital age could be solved - so easily!

Then came a question: How can a crypto be "limited" if the units can be broken down in infinite?
Yes, someone/consensus defined the Satoshi as the smallest unit - but its just a consensus, right? It could be more....or less...

But anyway - it may not be 21,000,000 BTCs, it may be 21,000,000 x 100,000,000 Satoshis that GRADUALLY become the currency - and with this "gradually" I mean, people will maybe start with a mBTC and so on...so this will shift the "currency" in the blockchain from "BTC" to "mBTC" and eventually to a Satoshi...and if so - I asked myself then, would that not be INFLATIONARY?

So I think, the core of DASH should think about hiring econimcs and sociology (and maybe history) pros...because we really need to think not only the "community-economics" through, but also the "society&global-economics"...

So back to the "Gresham" issue:
1. Positive terms - limited
Then I see it as you in pure economical terms...a limited crypto has to be more valueable than a unlimited paper-currency - thus leading to a "BTC effect", thus making DASH too valuable for exchanging goods. But as at the same time BTC would linger above as the "digital gold" it would probably lead to DASHs demise....

2. Negartive terms: Not unlimited
For me this seems the better alternative - I am not sure when and how - but you would have to separate on your own specific blockchain a value-token from a money token...this way you would create your own "cheap money" competing with your own value-token...and I personally do not think you can pish this too far into the future...you would have to define the 2 relatively early to ensure all knew and could build trust...

The downside (imho) would "just" be, that you would have to bury the idea of "deflationary"....

Anyway - an interesting topic...I think. Thank you, toknormal for sharing it!
 

lynx

Active Member
Dec 11, 2015
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But anyway - it may not be 21,000,000 BTCs, it may be 21,000,000 x 100,000,000 Satoshis that GRADUALLY become the currency - and with this "gradually" I mean, people will maybe start with a mBTC and so on...so this will shift the "currency" in the blockchain from "BTC" to "mBTC" and eventually to a Satoshi...and if so - I asked myself then, would that not be INFLATIONARY?
No, I think you are misunderstanding things... If gold, for example, becomes so valuable that for everyday transactions (assuming we used gold for everyday transactions) people started trading in miligrams of it instead of grams, it doesn't mean that there was inflation. Whoever owned a gram of gold didn't get his gold debased because he always did - and still does - possess 1000 miligrams of gold. The same thing with crypto.
 

GeauxSheaux

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Mar 2, 2017
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But anyway - it may not be 21,000,000 BTCs, it may be 21,000,000 x 100,000,000 Satoshis that GRADUALLY become the currency - and with this "gradually" I mean, people will maybe start with a mBTC and so on...so this will shift the "currency" in the blockchain from "BTC" to "mBTC" and eventually to a Satoshi...and if so - I asked myself then, would that not be INFLATIONARY?
You have a cup of water. It has 3.01 x 10^23 water molecules in it. But now let's define it by its total number of oxygen atoms, 2 x molecules. You still have the same cup of water. You're just defining smaller and smaller portions of the same total amount.
 

shoggoth

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Mar 4, 2017
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I think, here the metaphor stops being useful - we had gold as a currency....also silver.....bronc...even salt..
They all had their limits to the granularity you could "tweak" them to....parts of (the metric) words like kilo, deci, centi, mili or micro stem from this...because in order to trade with others it had to be "broken down"...in alignments as above...but as there were physical limits, societies then searched for "convertible" goods...finally using print on paper as the final resort...backed by gold and/or other "real" values at first...and then...well...belief? ;-)

Now you have a "gold", that can be divided into infinite n pieces...n=consensus....if you go beyond 1/1,000st it will be an effect as a paper currency...because it is the main reason why paper currency was invented...to go beyond the physical boundaries of physical goods...

And since Greshams law seems to make sense, every crypto that does not carry seperated "gold" and "currency" in itself will not be more than a speculative experience for some, but never a solution for many - imo today ....
 
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lynx

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Dec 11, 2015
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The analogy doesn't break down, because even being infinitely divisible doesn't make a currency inflationary. There are no new coins being emitted (for the purpose of this discussion), so no one is losing relative purchasing power.
 
Feb 25, 2017
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There is one obstacle that no crypto currency nor any other anarchistic currency has ever overcome.

It is not the usabillity, it is Gresham's law.

"In economics, Gresham's law is a monetary principle stating that "bad money drives out good". For example, if there are two forms of commodity money in circulation, which are accepted by law as having similar face value, the more valuable commodity will disappear from circulation." - Wikipedia
In simple English: When Dash becomes more valuable over time, but legal money is inflationary (losing value), people will use legal money for exchanging goods and Dash for savings. They will always prefere to give away the money, that "burns it's value" over time.

The only thinkable solution can be one that makes shopping with dash more beneficial than shopping with legal money.

Usabillty won't do the trick here. Because any usabillity advancement can be adopted in legal money based payment services very quickly.

They also have the advancement of beeing widley accepted and people are used to use it. Once we have shifted this, inflationary currencies will lose their positions. Because although on the one hand everybody wants to give away inflationary money, on the other hand no one wants to get it back either.

One idea I have is to use some of the new mined coins to artificially drop prices. If we could pay shop owners some percentage of their sellings (bought with dash) for a little price drop, people might prefere dash instead of the legal money. Shop owners might prefere Dash because it will attract new customers, too.

If the lower prices together with the time preference beat the 'deflationary loss of giving dash away', people might prefere Dash. This could be a potential solution. It would only need to be applied until enough people and shops got used to use Dash.

I'm not sure wether this could work or not. But but what are your thoughts on Gresham's law? How will we solve this problem?
You're dead wrong. People will start to realise holding dollars is bad, therefore they will sell they're dollars for Dash, therefore increasing Dash's price. Meanwhile usability will also increase Dash's value (transaction number).