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Dash Platform Side-Chain

qwizzie

Well-known member
As i understand from the livestream of the Dash Convention Europe 2019, Dash Core Group decided to implement a side-chain that is separate from our Proof of Work/Proof of Service main chain.

It's called the Dash Platform Chain (I think) and is specifically designed to process state transitions. It has a separate protocol, which produces it's own blocks and puts state transition transactions into those blocks through variable / deterministic (?) fees.

I would like to know more about this side-chain, the protocol that drives it, how it gets mined, who will get these variable fees and the level of decentralization this side-chain hopefully can offer us. I understand that this side-chain has very little to do with blockchain, but still largely rely on blocks, miners and variable fees. Is it some kind of service that handles this side-chain all on its own ?

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this whole new side chain development.
 
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Copypasting my answers from a Reddit thread:

The second chain won't be mined. A masternode quorum will produce the blocks. Since this chain will be processed only by the masternodes, masternode network will get all the fees collected from the state transitions. The second chain fees are also deterministic, and based on the size of data and data complexity, i.e., how much resources it will require in the future to query this data. Deterministic fees are a selling point for big companies that may want to adopt Dash as a platform, as it will be easier to calculate costs in advance, and that can be important for businesses who plan their budgets. Deterministic, however, doesn't mean static: there will be a voting mechanism to adjust fees with a "multiplier" of the base fee per kilobyte/operation. So, if the fees get too low, masternodes can vote to get them higher to match hosting prices/profits. But if the fees get too high and people stop using the platform, they also can lower the fees to drive usage and revenue up for this case.
 
Very interesting, in a way this could form an additional revenue stream for masternodes. So a sub-quorum produces these second chain blocks, are the fees then collected by those specific masternodes that consists of that masternode quorum (fees divided by number of masternodes of that quorum) or are they collected differently by the masternodes network?
 
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The reasons for having a second chain are mostly technical.

Dash Platform started as a decentralized backend-as-a-service solution for DashPay app. The core of the platform is its database capabilities: It can be used to store and retrieve arbitrary documents. The state of the database depends on the order in which state transitions are applied to it. State transitions are sorted inside the blocks, so we can be sure that after replicating the chain, the database state is the same on all the nodes in the network. However, the same can be achieved with the chain we already have. So why do we need the second chain?
The second chain is needed to achieve the best possible user experience with the platform. We want to achieve a user experience that is indistinguishable from a non-crypto app. It would be pretty inconvenient to the user when he adds a friend on facebook at a party but needs to wait for a confirmation on the chain for his friend request to appear in the app. It's also inconvenient to have even a slight possibility of reorgs: it would be pretty frustrating if your friends disappear from the friend list after you've added them. This leads us to two requirements for the consensus on the platform data:
  1. It needs to be fast;
  2. It needs to be finite.
Also, there's an economic side to it that I've stated in the post above: we want to make platform developer-friendly and business-friendly. Businesses plan at least for a couple of months in advance. If the platform fees are deterministic, then the business can estimate how many Dash it needs based on the estimation of the amount of the data they're going to store.

We will release a paper that describes the platform consensus in more details later. Until then, I hope this answers some of your questions!
 
Very interesting, in a way this could form an additional revenue stream for masternodes. So a sub-quorum produces these second chain blocks, are the fees then collected by those specific masternodes that consists of that masternode quorum (fees divided by number of masternodes of that quorum) or are they collected differently by the masternodes network?

Currently, we're testing different fees collection scenarios to see what would be the best for the whole network:
1. Fees collected by the nodes who processed the state transition;
2. Fees are added to ordinary masternode payouts;
3. Hybrid solutions, since the node which is processing the state transition, spends more resources on it, but other nodes need to save this data too;

Each of them has its downsides; We'll publish the conclusion in the platform consensus paper.
 
Currently, we're testing different fees collection scenarios to see what would be the best for the whole network:
1. Fees collected by the nodes who processed the state transition;
2. Fees are added to ordinary masternode payouts;
3. Hybrid solutions, since the node which is processing the state transition, spends more resources on it, but other nodes need to save this data too;

Each of them has its downsides; We'll publish the conclusion in the platform consensus paper.

One last question, is this side chain development impacting the timeline of our roadmap ? Are we still scheduled for a Dash Platform release on testnet for end of december 2019 ?
 
I'm concerned that this concept is going way, waayyy out of scope for simply being workable digital cash...

Adopt DASH as a platform? Platforms are bad. Platforms are always walled gardens not merely prone to abuse, but requires putting on chains that sane people don't want to put on.

Why? It's a very strange idea in search of a problem. From the perspective of said business, what does this accomplish that isn't done better in-house with more conventional technologies? It seems like several bridges too far leading nowhere... OH, BTW, now you're stuck with a 3rd party platform pulling your strings and running your business, telling you what you ca and can't do... Signing up for restrictions when the alternative is not signing up and not having restrictions... Hmm, let me think on that for 0 seconds and walk away... Exactly what is offered that is so desperately needed that any business would accept the liability of shackling themselves to it?

Consume already limited resources to provide a bad idea that isn't useful to anyone...? I don't get it.

Another infinite blockchain with no place to store it? You haven't figured out what you're going to do with the one you already have! Now you have 2 unmanageable infinities to store on something that doesn't exist...

How are you going to scale the actual digital cash part of DASH? You already don't come anywhere close to the capabilities of transaction handling that VISA has. Now you're creating an additional burden on top of the primary function that you already can't fulfill (and seem to have almost forgotten about)?

I don't want my money to be a nosy busy body, controlling even more aspects of my life/business than already occurs with banks/government bs. Why is exactly the thing was use crypto to avoid, being baked into DASH? Is DASH becoming GUVCOIN?

This kind of reminds me of baking shared masternodes into the protocol. It's just virtue-signaling to the derp-de-derps for a service (with a cost) which DASH doesn't benefit from providing. DASH should be doing what benefits it's own function ONLY, not playing snowflake and giving useless free stuff to people who don't know how to manage it properly anyway... If they weren't a bunch of screw-ups, they'd be able to afford a full masternode of their own. We don't need screw-up running nodes. Same reason the US started falling apart the moment non-land-owners were allowed to vote... How many times has it been made painfully obvious that the US is not where crypto development will be because it's collapsing, yet you want to follow the same model of failure? Only the competent should sit at the table.

Just because you can do a thing, does no follow that you should do that thing... Your budget hasn't got room for the pork barrel pie in the sky socialist nonsense anyway...

Whatever happened to Digital Cash? Did you guys completely forget about this while going off on these out of scope tangents? What if I don't want all this nonsense? I (and pretty much everyone else) just wanted a better kind of money... We wanted what Bitcoin promised, but failed to deliver. Not this monstrosity... What the hell happened? What color is the sky on your planet?

Money that is not centrally manipulated or controlled, which can't be seized on a whim of corrupt government, with instantly secured transactions, which protects my privacy. I don't know anyone who doesn't want that. You've strayed far from that path....
 
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I'm concerned that this concept is going way, waayyy out of scope for simply being workable digital cash...

I understand your concerns. I think it's our fault not communicating better what exactly is the platform is built for and what use cases we have in mind. Let me explain a little bit more detail.

We started to build the platform to build DashPay in the first place - the easy and secure way to handle payments. If we want a user experience that matches non-crypto payment apps, we need to store some additional data, like usernames and contact lists. The nature of such data is different from the payments data - contacts can be updated or removed. The only point to having historical records of such data is to prove that once you had such a contact. For that, we'll provide specialized historical nodes, which are a subject for later releases. For the first release, we'll just keep the whole chain with all data.

So the data on the platform is prunable. The second chain is just the tool to maintain the consistency of this data. We also plan to make this chain prunable as well, as the nodes only need to sync the current state of the platform data. This is still a topic for research and not a subject for the first release as well - but rather a plan for the future.

We also try to build a platform that is easy for developers. We're creating a Google FireBase-like API. What do we offer on top of that? Verifiable data and history of changes and that can be compelling for supply chain businesses. We aren't trying to attract absolutely everyone to the platform - if the businesses use case is more suitable for a centralized proprietary system, we can't do anything to attract them by definition. But for those who want credibility and verifiability of their data - we have the right tool.
 
If we want a user experience that matches non-crypto payment apps...
You're assuming that the answer to this is "Yes."

Everything you say is predecated upon this. Everything you're doing is based on this assumption.

What if the answer is "No?"
we need to store some additional data, like usernames and contact lists. The nature of such data is different from the payments data - contacts can be updated or removed.
Kinda reminds me of Libra in the fact that it doesn't need a blockchain. A plain old database could do this. We're using the MasterNodes as the trust layer, so the storage method isn't really relevant...

As I said, it reminds me of Libra. because Libra is really just an electronically distributed security/share in a holdings corporation. Duct-taping a blockchain to it is just a thinly veiled attempt to exempt it from securities regulations by kludging a technical buzzword into it. It's total overkill and it shouldn't really be used in this way. It's just meant to be a smokescreen.

In the case of DASH's sidechain, a similar concept applies. You're not trying to hide your security behind a buzzword, but you are applying a technology in a way that really isn't appropriate. Seemingly just for the sake of saying "muh blockchain!"

Just use mysql...
The only point to having historical records of such data is to prove that once you had such a contact.
I don't want that. I want Digital Cash. When I hand a $20 bill to someone, it doesn't keep a historical record. It doesn't color me as suspect just because the previous spender may have used it to buy weed (oh no, teh weedz). The blockchain enables a lot of analysis like this, and none of it is good... The blockchain was supposed to break government chains, not reinforce them... Who's side are you on?
For that, we'll provide specialized historical nodes, which are a subject for later releases. For the first release, we'll just keep the whole chain with all data.

So the data on the platform is prunable. The second chain is just the tool to maintain the consistency of this data.
I theorized on the idea of being able to roll-forward an origin block, and prune off all useless info every so often. MNs make this possible. But unlike many, I also ask "just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done... Should this actually be done? If so, how?"

I'm not seeing that type of introspection happening here... Scope creep.

Should you actually be doing this? I don't see how this contributes to being Digital Cash. I see that you're using PayPal as the model for competition...

DashPay is to PayPal and DASH is to Fiat.

But, nobody cares about DASH. You're building an invasive service for money that nobody uses...

Besides, nobody smart wants to be trapped in a platform... Even dumb people don't want it. You need a good enough carrot to get people in. Apple converted stupidity into a fashion and status symbol. Idiots can't say no to that. PayPal and Government work together to ensure you have no choice but to use their services. Coercion.

What's DASH got? How does DASH carrot or stick anyone into using the platform? What makes walking into the cage worth it?

And for all of this, how does it further the idea that people might actually want; Digital Cash that actually works like you expect it to?

It doesn't...
We also plan to make this chain prunable as well, as the nodes only need to sync the current state of the platform data.
Which makes me ask, again, why not just use a database? Why are we kludging in a technology where it doesn't really need to be, and other mechanisms are simpler and easier to use? Libra. Jamming a blockchain in there just to say it's got muh blockchainz, yo!
This is still a topic for research and not a subject for the first release as well - but rather a plan for the future.

We also try to build a platform that is easy for developers. We're creating a Google FireBase-like API. What do we offer on top of that? Verifiable data and history of changes and that can be compelling for supply chain businesses. We aren't trying to attract absolutely everyone to the platform - if the businesses use case is more suitable for a centralized proprietary system, we can't do anything to attract them by definition. But for those who want credibility and verifiability of their data - we have the right tool.
It seems like a solution in search of a problem in that regard. Worse, it's a tool that's widely available already. A commodity that's already been perfected and cheapened to the point that it's not worth thinking about. "It's attractive to X business." Really? Show me that business that's asking for it. Where's the demand? Show me.

But, again, we find ourselves on a tangent... How does this make Digital Cash a reality? How does this make Walmart or 7-Eleven or Macy's say "We should do this." It seems utterly unrelated to me...

I'm not opposed to shutting yourself in a room to get work done, but every once in a while you've got to compare your work to what's happening in the real world, and even the goals you said you had for your own work when you started it...

You've fallen to 19th place. You can't pay the bills. Not even close. You need to take the hint that maybe, just maybe, you've lost the plot. You're off in the weeds instead of where you should be. Even by your own stated goals, you're nowhere near the path you should be on.

You're heaping a lot of crap on MNs. This was expected. But, it's already not worth the trouble to run MNs. There are low-risk, low-maintenance investments that pay more. Putting your money pretty much anywhere else is a better deal. Only true believers are still running MNs. The fact that MNs would have a lot more work to do was always known and expected. Not getting paid worth a damn wasn't part of that deal. The point of MNs was that they be incentivized. They're not anymore, and the deal is set to get even worse...

Pushing TXes up into secured memory pools, instead of down off the chain entirely into off-protocol 3rd party services, was a good move. Pushing PS into IS is an example of it. More secure, more integrated, faster, totally secured. Not only still involved in the validation process, but deeper into it, instead of removed from it entirely like other systems. This is a clear and obvious step towards making Digital Cash real-world usable. Pushing deeper into validation, instead of having none at all and just hoping for the best. Bravo!

Why isn't a DASH-branded Point of Sale service with a major "partner" in the works (why doesn't it already exist)? Kraken still requires 6 "confirmations." Didn't DASH make "confirmations" obsolete? Coinbase wants 2. Why isn't it Zero? Why not show some confidence in your product and take away their fake, protectionist excuses? Guarantee IS, personally. Put your money where your mouth is, by taking no risk at all. IS works, right? So, why not?

But, then you kinda trailed off into irrelevancy. What are you thinking? What are you doing?

I've no problem with DCG getting down to work behind closed doors. No interruptions. Ignore the bullsh!t. I'm just saying you need to check the relevancy of what you're doing now and then. You've become so reclusive that you've lost touch with reality, and even lost touch with your own supposed objectives. I can relate... ;-) It's something I have more than a little experience with myself. I know it when I see it, because I've done it quite a lot. But for me, it's inconsequential. My own personal hobbies affect no one but me, and are totally irrelevant in the grand scheme. You were doing something that actually mattered. Now, I have no idea what you're doing. What you tell me seems to have no correlation to the stated goals of the project. It's like Tesla doesn't sell electric cars anymore. They decided to make edible toilet plungers in a secret meeting and never told anybody... whhuuuut?

What do you expect any of this bulk to do in the furtherance of Digital Cash? Not only can no one answer the question, I get deer-in-the-headlights for asking it. As if the stated mission of the DASH project isn't even a thought that anyone involved with it can comprehend... Digital Cash? What's that? What you are you talking about, Camosoul? We're too busy working on our top-secret edible toilet plunger to be bothered with you, troll!

...whhuuuut? What happened to DASH?

What the plan? Do you even have one? There are several elephants in the room, and everyone is desperate to pretend they don't exist...
 
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