you most definitely are missing alot.
The community wouldn't vote against it if things were more transparent and measurable. We want ROI.
Dash Partnership with Transform PR
- Thread starter kot
- Start date
The community wouldn't vote against it if things were more transparent and measurable. We want ROI.
Wanting more transparency is fine.
What I don't get is the logic of not funding a project that's underway, sponsored by Eduffield and if its not funded the coins will be lost anyway.
Seems very rash, not to mention the reputation problems we might have from canceling a contract halfway to completion.
Bingo, it makes DASH look real good. :/
So since everything is already "ruined" show the community some analytics, make them realize the value of it, and revote it in.
It's not a hard problem to solve. They just keep linking dashtalk.org/news and acting like thats enough, and it's not. Not even close.
I said it's a rash move to cancel the contract that is underway, sponsored by Eduffield and if its not funded the coins will be lost anyway. Not ruined.
As for analytic's of what, followers? users? posts? and which are better?
Why don't you create a concise simple single post listing of what you want/expect of that proposal instead of just complaining that is not good enough over and over again. Anything less is proof that your aim is not to improve the community.
How does that workout?
I don't want to see the COMMUNITIES FUNDS wasted.
And as I have said multiple times over, supply ANY type of proof they are working hard and its worth the money spent. Just as is requested of every single other person proposing things to the network.
What makes Evans proposals special? Why does he get a free pass not to ask the PR company to provide information on what we are paying for?
Why don't you create a concise simple single post listing of what you want/expect of that proposal instead of just complaining that is not good enough over and over again. Anything less is proof that your aim is not to improve the community.
In this thread you are the only person calling you a fucking troll - don't try to play this game.
However I wrote clearly that I would expect you to offer something better or with the comparable value and impact in place for Transform PR project. Not theoretical posts saying that we should do something as a community or what should the others do. What do you offer instead? Hard and soft benefits please.
Since you have made this crusade and consider yourself a "winner", show us what we have won from you as a community. Be responsible for your actions and act as an adult man.
I will provide some raw numbers after this voting is closed - analytics cannot be provided after 3 weeks of project duration (as I already stated - you have no idea what you are writing about but still producing the same content).
I like your achievements from the past.
However I wrote clearly that I would expect you to offer something better or with the comparable value and impact in place for Transform PR project. Not theoretical posts saying that we should do something as a community or what should the others do. What do you offer instead? Hard and soft benefits please.
Since you have made this crusade and consider yourself a "winner", show us what we have won from you as a community. Be responsible for your actions and act as an adult man.
I will provide some raw numbers after this voting is closed - analytics cannot be provided after 3 weeks of project duration (as I already stated - you have no idea what you are writing about but still producing the same content).
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I'll write a post regarding your point (and hopefully address the rest of the community that is dissatisfied with me) in the morning (its 11pm), I think I can see your point and its quite simple to address but I will just give you the short version for now, and will go into further detail when I get a chance to write a long chunked out thoughtful post in the morning/tomorrow.
You are absolutely correct, my recent attitude has been completely wrong and unnecessary. There are more effective ways for me to "lobby" and make my point and I apologize for offending you. I do know what I'm talking about though and it would take quite a wall of text to convince you of this, so I won;t bother arguing any further on that part of it for now. You'll just have to see for yourself.
Again, apologies for offending anyone, don't go banning me overnight now. I've already been warned by a moderator I can faithfully say is not "out to get me" and agree. You may not agree with my methods, but I obviously am effective.
edit: And I also wanted to say an anon Dasher will be lending me use of a vote, so I can cast my ballot and back up my vote instead of tear peoples opinions apart from the sidelines. So hooray for that! Happy to be able to be part of this awesome system and I totally appreciate everyone here. Regardless if I agree with you or not.
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TheDashGuy
It will be very easy to convince me without a wall of text - I am not interested in graphomania but in facts.
EDIT: Personally I do not feel offended and you do not need to apologize. Your language and behavior say a lot about you but it does not offend me - it may offend you only. I do not care about it - I care about the project. In my opinion the project just lost the best opportunity and partnership we have ever had due to your personal crusade. I am simply expecting that you are offering us a project/proposal equally good or better.
acidburn
Yes, it looks like it is lost.
It will be very easy to convince me without a wall of text - I am not interested in graphomania but in facts.
EDIT: Personally I do not feel offended and you do not need to apologize. Your language and behavior say a lot about you but it does not offend me - it may offend you only. I do not care about it - I care about the project. In my opinion the project just lost the best opportunity and partnership we have ever had due to your personal crusade. I am simply expecting that you are offering us a project/proposal equally good or better.
acidburn
Yes, it looks like it is lost.
Yep, community decided to follow the lobbying of TheDashGuy and reject the Transform PR proposal in its current form - he is a good spin doctor.
I don't think kot is offended, he is just curious how your actions will substantiate your words. You've lobbied for a alternative PR approach, now go on and do it.
We've had grassroots PR for almost 2 years, and we did not get much traction from it. We don't need another "wall of text" from you, just fix the Dash PR in a way we did not try yet.
As a starter, why not publish the article from alex-ru:
flare
Saying the community was swayed by Dashguy's logorrhea/logomania is borderline offensive.
He had very little to do with it. I hope the Dashguy doesn't get offended by this statement.
Terpin PR is basically the go to agency present at all these crypto conferences. Yes, they do accept crypto but them accepting crypto should not be the only criteria that matters here. I haven't seen any big hit PR piece coming from this partnership except for low profile articles on niche cryptowebsites and low profile PR stunts and some low profile invites to community google hangouts where the hosts are desperate to get projects like Dash on anyways. I didn't see any Forbes or CNBC article talking about Dash. Why haven't we?
Hiring a professional PR agency can't hurt but I'm not sure the way Terpin PR handles things is effective. I know projects that have used Terpin PR for years like Mastercoin, Maidsafe or Storj. Where are they now in terms of market cap and community? Are you impressed with those results?
Now, if there is a contract in place it should be followed through but the very fact you can change the vote makes it weird. Why wasn't this very fact taken into account from the get go?
Saying the community was swayed by Dashguy's logorrhea/logomania is borderline offensive.
He had very little to do with it. I hope the Dashguy doesn't get offended by this statement.
Terpin PR is basically the go to agency present at all these crypto conferences. Yes, they do accept crypto but them accepting crypto should not be the only criteria that matters here. I haven't seen any big hit PR piece coming from this partnership except for low profile articles on niche cryptowebsites and low profile PR stunts and some low profile invites to community google hangouts where the hosts are desperate to get projects like Dash on anyways. I didn't see any Forbes or CNBC article talking about Dash. Why haven't we?
Hiring a professional PR agency can't hurt but I'm not sure the way Terpin PR handles things is effective. I know projects that have used Terpin PR for years like Mastercoin, Maidsafe or Storj. Where are they now in terms of market cap and community? Are you impressed with those results?
Now, if there is a contract in place it should be followed through but the very fact you can change the vote makes it weird. Why wasn't this very fact taken into account from the get go?
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Yeah, Evan took it down in a sensible and responsible move. TheDashGuy did absolutely nothing but make a spectacle of himself.
To think he actually made a dent into serious investor's voting opinion is to seriously discredit their IQ.
Mastercoin, Maidsafe or Storj never worked properly. You can advertise bad products with the best PR, it will help, but not do miracles. Terpin is not responsible for sub-par products.
I don't know if Terpin was involved, but those crowd sales were absolutely impressive.
.
To think he actually made a dent into serious investor's voting opinion is to seriously discredit their IQ.
Mastercoin, Maidsafe or Storj never worked properly. You can advertise bad products with the best PR, it will help, but not do miracles. Terpin is not responsible for sub-par products.
I don't know if Terpin was involved, but those crowd sales were absolutely impressive.
.
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Before I wanted more MN to have more ROI, now I want more just to have more votes
I think this is just the next phase of trolling for DASH. The old movement were identified almost immediately by strangers so they had to change tactics. They moved among us and did 'positive' things for DASH, for a while. And the friendly community you guys and girls welcomed them
We just escaped giving one 300K (over 99 payments) and just lost our most important (next to core dev) budget to these rats. Here they used the arguments we had against the “Vendor-experience” against ourselves. Most people probably walked right into this.
With the success of DASH recently we also get more pro trolls. I see a lot of respected community members talking to and discussing with these trolls, this gives them respect in the eyes of the casual reader
The “community” needs to find a defense against this. And look at themselves. Stopping the best PR we could ever have? We used to be so good at ignoring the trolls and now we are welcoming and talking to them on BCT and DT? Why?
I'm afraid it will only get worse.
We just escaped giving one 300K (over 99 payments) and just lost our most important (next to core dev) budget to these rats. Here they used the arguments we had against the “Vendor-experience” against ourselves. Most people probably walked right into this.
With the success of DASH recently we also get more pro trolls. I see a lot of respected community members talking to and discussing with these trolls, this gives them respect in the eyes of the casual reader
The “community” needs to find a defense against this. And look at themselves. Stopping the best PR we could ever have? We used to be so good at ignoring the trolls and now we are welcoming and talking to them on BCT and DT? Why?
I'm afraid it will only get worse.
Evan took it down? What do you mean?
I don't believe those are failed projects at all. If you check out their development feed, they are very much active and lots of code is being created daily. I believe they are working on cool things, all these 3 projects. You can make same argument about Dash - it takes whole day to anonymize coins and InstantX can only send a small amount currently. Bitcoin's Coinjoin on websites like blockchain.info takes much less so it's not like Dash is perfect either at this point in time.
This is KGB/Gestapo/Stasi/FSB/CIA type thinking. Everyone's out to get us so we must close up and ban NGOs and kill/imprison all the opposition.
It's just a thesis - didn't want to hurt anyones feelings.
I have zero interest in discussing this topic any further, it's simply above my pay grade. Let the PR guys take care of the PR, i am doing different things in the meantime
Fair enough.It's just a thesis - didn't want to hurt anyones feelings.
I have zero interest in discussing this topic any further, it's simply above my pay grade. Let the PR guys take care of the PR, i am doing different things in the meantime
P.S: The part was more of a joke than me being serious about being offended. Don't be so concerned about hurting anyone's feelings and censoring yourself. Above your pay-grade sounds a bit like being in the military. People shouldn't take stuff and themselves too seriously. This forum could use a bit of animation. People don't care just about mining dash or setting up masternodes. The more animated this place becomes the more people will join, contrary to what some control freaks here think.It's just a thesis - didn't want to hurt anyones feelings.
I have zero interest in discussing this topic any further, it's simply above my pay grade. Let the PR guys take care of the PR, i am doing different things in the meantime
This whole ordeal sparked Evans imagination to fix the problems with future budget contracts.
"Took it down" was a figure of speech. When the proposal got "yes" status again, by only a small margin, Evan decided to switch his own votes to "no" and lobbied others to vote "no", and dump that proposal completely. TheDashGuy had zero impact in the outcome.
InTheWoods
You must be genius of PR if you are able to say whether campaign works or not after 3 weeks from start... This is actually the time spent by Transform PR on the Dash promotion.
We haven't even give them a chance to present a monthly report from the project... Not to say that the results were planned to be achieved in 3 months time frame. The community just voted against it because one person was loud enough and wrote hundreds of posts without any information. Only slander, vulgar language and suggestions about bad intentions of Evan and the core team. I do not like it at all, do you?
You did not like the project - fine. You did not trust the core team - also fine. This is your choice. Now you should expect something better from the people who "offered" No votes and the contract cancellation as a result. I will expect this as a member of this community. I want a better option if this one was so bad.
Tomorrow, when the voting is closed, I am going to present my short report from the project. Based on this data, you may be able to assess the current outcomes of the project. Saying that it did not work after 3 weeks, without any review (and without any trust in words of the core team) was nothing but bad will and bad intentions in my opinion.
You must be genius of PR if you are able to say whether campaign works or not after 3 weeks from start... This is actually the time spent by Transform PR on the Dash promotion.
We haven't even give them a chance to present a monthly report from the project... Not to say that the results were planned to be achieved in 3 months time frame. The community just voted against it because one person was loud enough and wrote hundreds of posts without any information. Only slander, vulgar language and suggestions about bad intentions of Evan and the core team. I do not like it at all, do you?
You did not like the project - fine. You did not trust the core team - also fine. This is your choice. Now you should expect something better from the people who "offered" No votes and the contract cancellation as a result. I will expect this as a member of this community. I want a better option if this one was so bad.
Tomorrow, when the voting is closed, I am going to present my short report from the project. Based on this data, you may be able to assess the current outcomes of the project. Saying that it did not work after 3 weeks, without any review (and without any trust in words of the core team) was nothing but bad will and bad intentions in my opinion.
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kot
Where were these accusations posted?
Not trusting the core team? Why jump to such conclusions? The fact that someone makes a mistake doesn't mean he/she makes mistakes all the time. Things are not that black and white.
I was referring to the track record of Terpin PR which is lousy, which is the reason is why I've downvoted this proposal the minute it was released. I wasn't part of the group who changed votes later on.
Is there a contract in place with Terpin PR?
Where were these accusations posted?
Not trusting the core team? Why jump to such conclusions? The fact that someone makes a mistake doesn't mean he/she makes mistakes all the time. Things are not that black and white.
I was referring to the track record of Terpin PR which is lousy, which is the reason is why I've downvoted this proposal the minute it was released. I wasn't part of the group who changed votes later on.
Is there a contract in place with Terpin PR?
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There was a contract in place with Terpin PR, as I understand it, but fortunately they were nice enough to let us out of it. Otherwise, our lead developer (Evan), would be spending much of his time and money defending himself from a breach of contract lawsuit rather than building a better budget system and working on Dash Evolution.
To everyone (not directed InTheWoods):
I won't get dragged into a flame war over this, but I will respectfully say the following:
1) Evan, our lead developer, supported Terpin PR and advocated for their continued services to be approved.
2) Daniel, our business developer, did the same.
3) Kot, our project manager, did the same.
4) Tungfa, our PR liasion, did the same.
5) Flare, one of our core developers, did the same.
6) Fernando, our lawyer, did the same.
Now I understand that we are a decentralized project and that the votes of the masternodes outweigh the opinions of the Core Team. That's fine. But the very people who built Dash, and the ones who were in the position to know, repeatedly assured the community that Terpin PR was doing amazing work.
Otoh, who had initially voted against the project because he was skeptical, reevaluated his position and changed his vote because he could see, with publicly available information (in the news section, from our invitation to Satoshi Roundtable, etc.) that Terpin PR was doing great work. Please don't tell me a majority of masternode owners opposed the PR team. Don't hide behind that. Once Otoh recast his votes, there was a 970 vote majority (1601 to 625) in favor of keeping Terpin PR. The only reason the vote ended up not passing was because Evan got fed up at the flip-flopping (probably assuming that World War III would recommence next month), voted against it, and asked Otoh to do the same. Now he's building a better system, which is good (and obviously needed).
I've said my piece; I'm done with this thread. Say what you will, flame me if you want, but I won't see it.
Cheers.
P.S. I will admit to be wrong about one thing. Not that long ago, I argued that it would be difficult to get people to change their minds on a long-duration project and vote it down if it became necessary to do so. I was obviously sorely mistaken...all it takes is a very vocal, very aggressive minority (only a few people, actually) to unravel any multi-month project.
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David
It's nice to be able to have a rational discussion without getting emotional. No need to be defensive. Not sure why there's so much emotion going around.
Let's tackle some points specifically like Satoshi Table since you brought it up. If you check the 2015 Satoshi Table event you will see on the guest list a bunch of people that are not exactly the crème de la crème in the crypto space. Dash could have just asked to attend and it wouldn't have been much of a problem. I don't think Terpin did such a marvelous job getting Dash there. Just check the 2015 attendance rooster.
The Satoshi table is not a free event. Entry fee costs money and it ain't exactly cheap. The organizers stand to make a nice chunk of money and this exclusivity thing they want to sell is a good marketing gimmick nothing more. Like I've said - lots of low level devs have attended the previous events. 100 guests is a lot. They are lucky to fill those gaps. I'm thinking Terpin may get paid on both ends here. He gets money to get guests to this Round Table and also gets money from the client who attends the round table. This is probably a very realistic scenario.
So what you are saying is that Evan himself downvoted the proposal because of Dashguy and out of fear of what would happen next month? Not sure this makes any sense. I don't think this was the real reason because it's just weird.
It's nice to be able to have a rational discussion without getting emotional. No need to be defensive. Not sure why there's so much emotion going around.
Let's tackle some points specifically like Satoshi Table since you brought it up. If you check the 2015 Satoshi Table event you will see on the guest list a bunch of people that are not exactly the crème de la crème in the crypto space. Dash could have just asked to attend and it wouldn't have been much of a problem. I don't think Terpin did such a marvelous job getting Dash there. Just check the 2015 attendance rooster.
The Satoshi table is not a free event. Entry fee costs money and it ain't exactly cheap. The organizers stand to make a nice chunk of money and this exclusivity thing they want to sell is a good marketing gimmick nothing more. Like I've said - lots of low level devs have attended the previous events. 100 guests is a lot. They are lucky to fill those gaps. I'm thinking Terpin may get paid on both ends here. He gets money to get guests to this Round Table and also gets money from the client who attends the round table. This is probably a very realistic scenario.
So what you are saying is that Evan himself downvoted the proposal because of Dashguy and out of fear of what would happen next month? Not sure this makes any sense. I don't think this was the real reason because it's just weird.
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Actually, I think it just became obvious(to Dash or Terpin) once votes switched that the Terpin agreement was not a binding contract because it was tied to a non-guaranteed funding source. As David mentioned....the vote switching on long term proposals that everyone thought was nearly impossible, happened. And now it looks like we will have a solution for contracts going forward.
The Terpin contract is actually written well with concrete goals. Honestly, if some metric(that isn't showing a list of news stories) could have been communicated weekly in a non-biased way, this would not be an issue at all. Even if the summary was we have 5 goals each month. We met 3 of them. 1 of the goals we really hit it out of the park. The 2 we missed we are adjusting our efforts with x and y. The feedback is that we need xx literature and x to change on the website. Now we have x working on the literature, and y working on the website.
Maybe we have the PR firm guaranty a metric like visitors to dash.org. And we only pay them based on how much they improve visitor count. Wouldn't it be great if we can offer the option for PR firms/individuals to bid for visitor count? Maybe we could find alternative ways to get the same solution with a lower cost. I am only throwing out an idea - not saying Terpin or our PR team isn't doing their job, or even that visitor count is a valid metric.
Solarminer
I believe the proposal was downvoted because it was competing for funding with other proposals and it was just 1 or 2 guys with sufficient voting power who did it. I don't think this proves the point that lots of people will return to an older proposal to downvote it.
About metrics - I will say this: "What gets measured gets accomplished."
I believe the proposal was downvoted because it was competing for funding with other proposals and it was just 1 or 2 guys with sufficient voting power who did it. I don't think this proves the point that lots of people will return to an older proposal to downvote it.
About metrics - I will say this: "What gets measured gets accomplished."
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Not sure why isn't the discussion taking place in here. I don't go to that forum. Got a link?
Even if that was the case, it happened because someone like Evan urged people to do it. It's not your typical scenario where people go back to downvote proposals by themselves.