Catch all system?

TheDashGuy

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Just out of curiosity, whats the point of the catch all system thats going up for vote right now? Why are we adding in a crutch for the system all of the sudden? I thought it was working as intended?

https://www.dashwhale.org/budget

https://www.dashwhale.org/p/catchall-1024
https://www.dashwhale.org/p/catchall-512
https://www.dashwhale.org/p/catchall-256
https://www.dashwhale.org/p/catchall-128
https://www.dashwhale.org/p/catchall-64
https://www.dashwhale.org/p/catchall-16

Also, why are these being "rushed" and not talked about in the meantime while we educate everyone on whats going on here?

and before anyone says i didn't read this:
At the end of the month when the budget system finalizes the budget, any funds that are left over of the maximum 10% emission are never created (e.g. burned). This proposal will send funds that will otherwise be destroyed and allow the core team to fund ongoing projects.

There are 7 of these proposals that form the catchall system (Catchall-1024, Catchall-512, Catchall-256, Catchall-128, Catchall-64, Catchall-32, Catchall-16). These combined can catch any amount between 16 and 2048 DASH left over in the system.

Please do not vote this proposal up beyond 12% network support, we don't want it to bump any other items.

I did, still confused as to the purpose. Seems sudden.
 
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TheDashGuy

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Don't we WANT the unused funds to burn?
Working as intended, right? Thats what I was told.

Maybe we should just make room for smaller proposals by not eating up the budget with big ticket items all the time, might work out better. these things wouldn't be such an issue because there would be many options to vote on. We can prioritize much easier then.

We should be doing 1-2 month project based proposals as opposed to open ended large ticket "lets hope they play well" out items.
 

f2000

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I asked about this in another thread, I was going to ask if its ok...but suppose it is if everybody votes for it.
 

lynx

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It's not a system, nobody is modifying anything. They are just proposals. I also think the money should be burned unless they specify what it is for.
 
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David

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This is like saying that In the real world, every month I try to spend every penny I earn, and if I'm not successful I burn the money instead of putting it in savings. That way I never build up a cushion that I can use for the future and I can avoid doing things like saving for a house or a new car.

On the BCT thread, TanteStefana is arguing passionately about how being continually in arrears is unwise, and how we should only fund what we have the money to fund immediately, instead of dragging things out over multiple months. When Evan creates proposals that would effectively do that by "banking" any extra funds every month, the community goes into an uproar. So what is it? Do we want to continue to pay for big projects over a multi-month period and "risk" having our service providers make additional profit by holding an appreciating asset (Dash)? Or do we want to be able to pay people all at once, at today's exchange rate, and avoid all that?

Put another way: right now we have about $30,000 per month that can be used to grow Dash. If we burn $8,000 of those funds, that will increase the value of everyone's Dash by 0.0328%. If we spend them growing our ecosystem, they will probably net a much greater reward than that.

Edit: I do realize that we need to look at possible future consequences here. Using a catch-all system for too long could result in a "slippery slope" where we eventually just allocate all funds to the Core Team and abrogate our responsibilities as a community. What I think we need is a balance--let's use some sort of a catch-all system to keep budget Dash from being wasted, especially at this critical time in our growth, while simultaneously working on a permanent fix so that the catch-call proposals can be terminated.
 
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lynx

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David
In the real world you don't print money. If you did, you could burn what you didn't use (FYI it's not actually burning since the money never is created in the first place).

If you really wanted to save the money, it would make sense to modify the protocol so that the superblock surplus would carry over to the next month.

By the same logic (playing with numbers) you could say that we could have and extra $8000 per month in the budget (totaling $38000) and it would cost only 0.0328% in inflation, so why don't we do it?
 
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alex-ru

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It looks like a temporary patch for not a perfect system.

"Reimbursement for the Soda Machine" and "Transform PR" both have more than 20% support!
But in case "Reimbursement for the Soda Machine" will "win" - budgeting system will lose more than 1000 DASH - it's obviously a bug.

So we do need a patch to fix this bug IMO.

And I hope in future Budgeting system will be redesigned so there will be no need in any patches.
 
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David

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David
If you really wanted to save the money, it would make sense to modify the protocol so that the superblock surplus would carry over to the next month.

By the same logic (playing with numbers) you could say that we could have and extra $8000 per month in the budget (totaling $38000) and it would cost only 0.0328% in inflation, so why don't we do it?
Very good points, and I definitely agree that unused funds should "carry over" to later months. I definitely understand the need to "future-proof" the system, and I realize that if the catch-all system is used for too long it could definitely result in some "slippery slope" problems.

It looks like a temporary patch for not a perfect system.

"Reimbursement for the Soda Machine" and "Transform PR" both have more 20% support!
But in case "Reimbursement for the Soda Machine" will "win" - budgeting system will lose more than 1000 DASH - it's obviously a bug.

So we do need this patch to fix this bug IMO.

And I hope in future Budgeting system will be redesigned so there will be no need in this patch.
I'd say not so much a bug as an unintended consequence. I definitely agree on the need for a permanent fix, but hopefully this "catch-all" system can serve as a temporary stop-gap measure until the system can be redesigned.
 
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oaxaca

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OK folks, enough strategizing. Let's get this thing done. Face the facts.

Fact 1, we contracted with transform PR so we have to pay.
Fact 2, the budget proposal to pay them would not be funded next month anyway due to the 7% drop.
Fact 3, the slush fund concept was submitted so that we could pay them what we said we would do.

Not pretty, but effective. The goal of the soda reimbursement proposal was to get people off their asses and help do things. Maybe this slush fund concept will enable that. Do you have an idea for a project? Submit it! Do you have an opinion on other projects? Speak up! Hopefully, more masternode owners are taking this decentralized governance thing more seriously now instead of just watching from the sidelines.

Here is the answer. Vote YES on all of the slushies. That will enable the transform PR proposal to die and we still get to fulfill our commitments.
 

TheDashGuy

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What I think we need is a balance--let's use some sort of a catch-all system to keep budget Dash from being wasted, especially at this critical time in our growth, while simultaneously working on a permanent fix so that the catch-call proposals can be terminated.

Don't waste the entire budget on 3 big ticket items and funds won;t go to waste like this. Split it into smaller project based assignments and wala.

You can fit ALOT more projects into a 30k budget, when each item isn't 4-12k.....

So maybe we should table the PR firm, I mean we haven't seen much actual proof they are doing anything useful for Dash, just opinions that they are "awesome".

Show me numbers. Show me links. Show me hard proof the money is being used wisely.
 
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TheDashGuy

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It looks like a temporary patch for not a perfect system.

"Reimbursement for the Soda Machine" and "Transform PR" both have more than 20% support!
But in case "Reimbursement for the Soda Machine" will "win" - budgeting system will lose more than 1000 DASH - it's obviously a bug.

So we do need a patch to fix this bug IMO.

And I hope in future Budgeting system will be redesigned so there will be no need in any patches.
Working as intended, thats what I was repeatedly told before this situation arose, why is that attitude changing all of the sudden? A bug? Please. It was designed this way.

The bug here is wasting the budget on 2-3 things to appease the people who "run" the budget.

This is a community afterall, no? Let the voters decide.
 

TheDashGuy

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OK folks, enough strategizing. Let's get this thing done. Face the facts.

Fact 1, we contracted with transform PR so we have to pay.
Fact 2, the budget proposal to pay them would not be funded next month anyway due to the 7% drop.
Fact 3, the slush fund concept was submitted so that we could pay them what we said we would do.

Not pretty, but effective. The goal of the soda reimbursement proposal was to get people off their asses and help do things. Maybe this slush fund concept will enable that. Do you have an idea for a project? Submit it! Do you have an opinion on other projects? Speak up! Hopefully, more masternode owners are taking this decentralized governance thing more seriously now instead of just watching from the sidelines.

Here is the answer. Vote YES on all of the slushies. That will enable the transform PR proposal to die and we still get to fulfill our commitments.
Slush funds, wooo!


No really though, whats our goal here, if its been defined before, just show me a link. Because I was told that the intention is to burn the unused funds, AND to let the network decide everything. No behind the scenes actions round here! Right?
 

David

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Don't waste the entire budget on 3 big ticket items and funds won;t go to waste like this. Split it into smaller project based assignments and wala.

You can fit ALOT more projects into a 30k budget, when each item isn't 4-12k.....

So maybe we should table the PR firm, I mean we haven't seen much actual proof they are doing anything useful for Dash, just opinions that they are "awesome".

Show me numbers. Show me links. Show me hard proof the money is being used wisely.
PR is one of those things where the benefits are too subjective for most people to see. Unless we get an article in Wired or CNNMoney, people are going to think that the funds are wasted. In fact, since the very beginning of the budget system, people have complained about a "lack of results" from the original Public-Awareness proposal.

PR is all about contacts, connections, and building influence. Yes, part of their job is to get articles published, but a big part of their job happens behind the scenes. They get us invited to conferences, they help us make connections with major crypto investors, help us build relationships with exchanges, and so on.

Also remember that not everybody wants to hop in bed with you the first time they're told about you. Many times it takes multiple introductions, repeated reminders of what you're doing in the field, and so forth before a person (or company) decides to work with you. Dash could be one conversation away from some very major partnerships, but we don't know that.* Or Terpin could be laying the groundwork, and we may not see "results" for many months. Then one day something major happens, and nobody realize it was because the seed was planted months ago.

*I have no knowledge of such a thing, but I'm saying it's possible.
 

TheDashGuy

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PR is one of those things where the benefits are too subjective for most people to see. Unless we get an article in Wired or CNNMoney, people are going to think that the funds are wasted. In fact, since the very beginning of the budget system, people have complained about a "lack of results" from the original Public-Awareness proposal.

PR is all about contacts, connections, and building influence. Yes, part of their job is to get articles published, but a big part of their job happens behind the scenes. They get us invited to conferences, they help us make connections with major crypto investors, help us build relationships with exchanges, and so on.

Also remember that not everybody wants to hop in bed with you the first time they're told about you. Many times it takes multiple introductions, repeated reminders of what you're doing in the field, and so forth before a person (or company) decides to work with you. Dash could be one conversation away from some very major partnerships, but we don't know that.* Or Terpin could be laying the groundwork, and we may not see "results" for many months. Then one day something major happens, and nobody realize it was because the seed was planted months ago.

*I have no knowledge of such a thing, but I'm saying it's possible.

Or he could be gaming us because who cares, Dash will die off eventually right? /s

All I'm saying is, we are sending a very alarming message to the people ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK.
We can talk about what ifs and maybes all day long. Numbers please.


Give me 10000 Dash, maybe I can get us some very lucrative partnerships too!*
*I make no promises, just possibilities. Just trust me!


Is not how we do business in the real world.
 

tungfa

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Specific ones tungfa. Numbers. Articles. Not the news section of DT.

You can attribute every single news article on the web to them, half of that is organics.
nobody is
but if you really think we are like BTC who get 'organic' news right and left
you are way off
the crypto news scene changed a lot since 1 year ago, no way getting any Press Releases published these days
 

David

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Working as intended, thats what I was repeatedly told before this situation arose, why is that attitude changing all of the sudden? A bug? Please. It was designed this way.

The bug here is wasting the budget on 2-3 things to appease the people who "run" the budget.

This is a community afterall, no? Let the voters decide.
The voters are deciding. Right now they are deciding not to fund Soda Machine Reimbursement so that Terpin-PR gets funded. Maybe they decide something differently in a few days.

Yes, the system is working as it was *designed.* I wouldn't necessarily say that it's working "as intended." What we are seeing here, IMO, is unintended consequences. I don't think anybody anticipated that the Core Team would sign a contract and then possibly be held liable for civil damages because the network decided not to fund a proposal that was already approved.

So much is being said in innuendo here lately. There's always a shadowy "them" lurking behind the scenes, opposing everything good and pure. Are you talking about Evan? Is he the one you are accusing of "running the budget" and deciding what gets funded and what doesn't? Because he only has 275 votes.* Or is it that mysterious Otoh who is running the show, making sure the proposals you like are voted down? But he only has 405 votes. So who exactly is it that is doing all these bad things? Is it the entire Core Team? All the people who are writing the code that you use every day...is it these people who are manipulating the budget and negating your desires?

Who? Who are these nefarious individuals that are "running the budget" and are being "appeased?"

*Public information, revealed by Elbereth upon vote analysis before time-lagged voting was introduced.
 

oaxaca

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I would prefer they be burned (less inflation of the monetary base).
In theory, yes. But we're talking about a couple of hundred DASH out of a total of 19 Million? That's not much of an impact.
 

David

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Or he could be gaming us because who cares, Dash will die off eventually right? /s

All I'm saying is, we are sending a very alarming message to the people ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK.
We can talk about what ifs and maybes all day long. Numbers please.


Give me 10000 Dash, maybe I can get us some very lucrative partnerships too!*
*I make no promises, just possibilities. Just trust me!


Is not how we do business in the real world.
Sure, in theory he could be. The people who are working with him are telling you that he's doing a great job but that it's not something that can be reduced to numbers.

I'll tell you this: I'm the "official" writer for Dash. I'm a member of the Core Team and I write virtually all our press releases and official announcements. Those that I don't write, I edit. The stories you are seeing published right now are stories I have never seen before; I didn't write them and I didn't edit them. They didn't come from the Core Team. So maybe a whole bunch of journalists just suddenly got interested in Dash and decided to start writing about us. Or maybe our PR firm is doing what we hired them to do.

tungfa Do you remember the last time we actually had a press release published? IIRC it's been months. Nobody in crypto journalism cares about press releases anymore. It sucks because I spend a lot of time writing them, but it's true!
 
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TheDashGuy

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The voters are deciding. Right now they are deciding not to fund Soda Machine Reimbursement so that Terpin-PR gets funded. Maybe they decide something differently in a few days.

Yes, the system is working as it was *designed.* I wouldn't necessarily say that it's working "as intended." What we are seeing here, IMO, is unintended consequences. I don't think anybody anticipated that the Core Team would sign a contract and then possibly be held liable for civil damages because the network decided not to fund a proposal that was already approved.

So much is being said in innuendo here lately. There's always a shadowy "them" lurking behind the scenes, opposing everything good and pure. Are you talking about Evan? Is he the one you are accusing of "running the budget" and deciding what gets funded and what doesn't? Because he only has 275 votes.* Or is it that mysterious Otoh who is running the show, making sure the proposals you like are voted down? But he only has 405 votes. So who exactly is it that is doing all these bad things? Is it the entire Core Team? All the people who are writing the code that you use every day...is it these people who are manipulating the budget and negating your desires?

Who? Who are these nefarious individuals that are "running the budget" and are being "appeased?"

*Public information, revealed by Elbereth upon vote analysis before time-lagged voting was introduced.
I'm accusing noone. I'm saying something is wrong here, whether its Terpin pulling strings or a group or anything else I don't agree with it.

The budget should not be help accountable for contracts signed by people.

1 month chunks or payment upfront. Why is this even an argument? Why are you putting the community on the hook for some shitty contract that anyone in the current business world would have denied. This is not the future just yet. Slow down. We are still in a world of Fiat. Pay in Fiat if you want to sign a contract.
 

TheDashGuy

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Sure, in theory he could be. The people who are working with him are telling you that he's doing a great job but that it's not something that can be reduced to numbers.

I'll tell you this: I'm the "official" writer for Dash. I'm a member of the Core Team and I write virtually all our press releases and official announcements. Those that I don't write, I edit. The stories you are seeing published right now are stories I have never seen before; I didn't write them and I didn't edit them. They didn't come from the Core Team. So maybe a whole bunch of journalists just suddenly got interested in Dash and decided to start writing about us. Or maybe our PR firm is doing what we hired them to do.

tungfa Do you remember the last time we actually had a press release published? IIRC it's been months. Nobody in crypto journalism cares about press releases anymore. It sucks because I spend a lot of time writing them, but it's true!
Or maybe Dash is organically growing? Because you know, people are giving alts a chance now that BItcoin is having issue AGAIN?

No way, it must be 100% Terpin! What a genius!

edit: oh it definitely can be reduced to numbers. It happens every day! It's called we want to know what the money is being spent on and whats coming out of it.

Linking me the news section of Dashtalk is pointless. I want to see traction. I want to see content thats useful, not just promotional.

Let me repeat myself; any PR firm worth its weight could and would happily provide this stuff. If they cannot provide insight as to whats going on and if the ROI is actually there, they are not worth doing business with.
 

David

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Or maybe Dash is organically growing? Because you know, people are giving alts a chance now that BItcoin is having issue AGAIN?

No way, it must be 100% Terpin! What a genius!
Yes, maybe so. Maybe we went months without any journalists interested in us at all, and then they just all suddenly, at about the same time, decided that they needed to write about Dash. Maybe they just all made this decision at once, without any prodding or introductions from anybody else.

I suggest deploying Occam's Razor.
 

TheDashGuy

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Yes, maybe so. Maybe we went months without any journalists interested in us at all, and then they just all suddenly, at about the same time, decided that they needed to write about Dash. Maybe they just all made this decision at once, without any prodding or introductions from anybody else.

I suggest deploying Occam's Razor.
So you are telling me evolution has nothing to do with it? The community helping out has no bearing on the users? People like ericsammons who do the exact same thing as Terpin, but did it for free, don't matter?

What exactly are you saying here? Terpin did all of that himself?

Because let me tell you, I found out about Dash via Youtube. That must have been Terpin too right?
 

David

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So you are telling me evolution has nothing to do with it? The community helping out has no bearing on the users? People like ericsammons who do the exact same thing as Terpin, but did it for free, don't matter?

What exactly are you saying here? Terpin did all of that himself?

Because let me tell you, I found out about Dash via Youtube. That must have been Terpin too right?
I'm saying that a whole bunch of things rarely happen simultaneously for absolutely no reason. Maybe it was Terpin, maybe it was ericsammons, maybe it was you yourself. But it's statistically unlikely for so many news articles to be released at the same time by different and unconnected journalists without any outside "intervention."

In any event, I'll agree to disagree on this. I'm not arguing for the sake of convincing you, but to convince others who will come here. Cheers!
 

tungfa

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Let me repeat myself; any PR firm worth its weight could and would happily provide this stuff. If they cannot provide insight as to whats going on and if the ROI is actually there, they are not worth doing business with.
you again eh !
knowing everything as always !

no need to have a discussion with you as :
you always have the last word
have been around the longest
knows everything
and everything about PR for sure
...
pointless

David
they are working with their won writers, we only give pointers for ideas and such
you are still on for us and team and Press Releases here but the 'outsiders' do their own thing
;)
 
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TheDashGuy

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I'm saying that a whole bunch of things rarely happen simultaneously for absolutely no reason. Maybe it was Terpin, maybe it was ericsammons, maybe it was you yourself. But it's statistically unlikely for so many news articles to be released at the same time by different and unconnected journalists without any outside "intervention."

In any event, I'll agree to disagree on this. I'm not arguing for the sake of convincing you, but to convince others who will come here. Cheers!
See but if we had actually said, he community go write a bunch fo articles about Dash and make them informative and well buy them with the budget! We could track this stuff, but since we are going to a company whos dictating the rules we get nothing?

Why are we using this company again? We should NOT be at the mercy of them. We should be at the marcy of the community.

I think you guys keep missing my points here because you are so stuck on me disagreeing with you. So I will gladly keep repeating myself.

Links? Numbers? Math? ROI? TPS reports?
 

TheDashGuy

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you again eh !
knowing everything as always !

no need to have a discussion with you as :
you always have the last word
have been around the longest
knows everything
and everything about PR for sure
...
pointless

David
they are working with their won writers, we only give pointers for ideas and such
you are still on for us and team and Press Releases here but the 'outsiders' do their own thing
;)
Still not supplying anything but a DT News section link I see.

Pointless.

Where's the transparency in this again?