Budget System v2 / Transform PR

masternode

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masternode , I don't know who you've talked to, but my research, which is all online as I don't know anyone, points to the flaky project teams in this space causing issues with results. I don't trust the rumor mill here, and since this Michael Terpin has actually been quite successful at other projects and seems to have connections, I'd like to actually give him a chance with the time period he originally asked for.
Fwiw, I spoke with people who've directly worked with Terpin. No second or third hand stories.

But to be thorough let's not just take my word for it. If Terpin is in fact quite successful at other PR projects like you say, then please show me a list of ALTCOIN articles that he managed to get into major publications. It's a very simple and a very necessary step in the process. Then we can look up other PR firms who've worked with Altcoins and compare. Let's make our PR decisions with data and clear facts!
 
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tungfa

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can we please drop that Terpin discussion by now !
this will go nowhere as everybody has different opinions, research and thought on him , and PR / Marketing in general !

I wanted to make some points here as well,
but honestly i have no time to work though this endless thread !
 

raganius

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Fwiw, I spoke with people who've directly worked with Terpin. No second or third hand stories.

But to be thorough let's not just take my word for it. If Terpin is in fact quite successful at other PR projects like you say, then please show me a list of ALTCOIN articles that he managed to get into major publications. It's a very simple and a very necessary step in the process. Then we can look up other PR firms who've worked with Altcoins and compare. Let's make our PR decisions with data and clear facts!

So, my suggestion is: The system must be so that the decisions are more prudent, meticulous and demanding before the approval of any budget item, avoiding that the community accepts some proposal out of pure enthusiasm and hype.

I solution I see is: the voting thresholds must be higher enough for any decision to be made. Being more strict means less possibility of poor quality proposals accepted into the budget (proposal owners will have to convince more voters).
 

InTheWoods

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So, my suggestion is: The system must be so that the decisions are more prudent, meticulous and demanding before the approval of any budget item, avoiding that the community accepts some proposal out of pure enthusiasm and hype.

I solution I see is: the voting thresholds must be higher enough for any decision to be made. Being more strict means less possibility of poor quality proposals accepted into the budget (proposal owners will have to convince more voters).
High threshold also means high participation which is not guaranteed. Could end up being a `perfection is paralysis` kinda` thing.

Also, what I'd like to see is faster payouts if possible. We could miss some cool events for example because funding is weeks away. Why not have weekly budget payouts?

*sidenote: Look at the price action of our competition following Amanda's interview. I think hiring her would be totally worth it. We should encourage her to put up a proposal.
 
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stan.distortion

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So, my suggestion is: The system must be so that the decisions are more prudent, meticulous and demanding before the approval of any budget item, avoiding that the community accepts some proposal out of pure enthusiasm and hype.

I solution I see is: the voting thresholds must be higher enough for any decision to be made. Being more strict means less possibility of poor quality proposals accepted into the budget (proposal owners will have to convince more voters).
Maybe after too, something like 50% initially and the other 50% after a vote on whether the project has been completed successfully.
I'd like to see IDs attached to budgets too so a track record can be built up or anything else that can assist voters and be searched with simple filters.
 
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TheDashGuy

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Hi TantaStefana. So after I was told that we were thinking of using Michael Terpin, I called around. He has a reputation of promising major publications but doesn't deliver. I can't find a single example of a PR campaign he did on an Altcoin that was able to get press releases in a major publication (i.e. WSJ, NYT, Wired, etc.). I spoke with industry insiders, attorneys and even the CEO of crypto company that he's actually worked with in the past. People here were very interested in working with him, so I kept an open mind and decided not to say much and just see how it played out. When I finally saw the list of outlets that he got us into I wasn't impressed (but on his behalf I will say I enjoyed reading the articles). While it wasn't total proof, it was consistent with what I suspected which was that he wasn't going to be the guy to get us into premium publications.

I'm not quite so sure why everyone is so ready to jump behind Transform PR. There are a lot of PR firms, and this whole process seems like it should be very simple because with a lot of options out there I can't see why we can't get them to try to win our business. You just ask them for a list of publications that they say they have reach with and ask them to SHOW YOU PROOF of this. If it's impressive, then you set up a list of expected deliverables that they commit to if they want our business. If they can't deliver then they don't get paid, or it's a lesser amount. If they are confident they can get you were they say they can, then they shouldn't have an issue with this. If we were to do it this way, then we wouldn't be speculating on someone's ability to get us into where they promise. We would then have set ourselves up in a situation that is cut and dry and we are investing in PR (because investing and speculating are not the same thing). If it's structured in this way then we don't waste money if what we expect is not delivered.

But what worries me, is that I'm not positive we need to be spending money on PR at the moment, or if we do it can be better executed. And if we do hire another PR firm, my suggestion is let's try someone totally different. Why go with the same guy twice, especially when we are concerned about his effectiveness. Let's get an additional data point, and see how effective another team is. But for certain let's have them show us some proof first that they can deliver what they say they can.

I've been pretty busy lately with a crypto-startup I helped launch (www.blockfolio.com for anyone interested - shameless plug!). I'm handling the biz dev / marketing for them and in the process I've gotten a lot of ideas that I think can help Dash deliver a strong message as well. I can make the time to spend with Dash core team in the future and see if I can help set up a good marketing strategy if they are open to it. This is the kind of stuff I love to do.

-Ed
We have no room for your logic around here! We are 100% backing Terpin because..... wait, why are we backing Terpin so hard again?

As I have been saying for months now. Terpin is a WASTE of money.

What startup builds a marketing department OR hires a PR agency when the product is half finished and the product support isn't even up to par?

A community full of people wanting to flip a quick profit. Is that us? I would hope not.
 
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TheDashGuy

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guys
can we please drop that Terpin discussion by now !
this will go nowhere as everybody has different opinions, research and thought on him , and PR / Marketing in general !

I wanted to make some points here as well,
but honestly i have no time to work though this endless thread !

Why would we drop it? It needs to be discussed because obviously there is a HUGE disconnect between the ideals and methods of the core team and some of the community. And for us to move forward we NEED to be on the same page.

Also, why are we SOOOOO set on Transform PR? I would happily cause a shit storm again unless it's discussed in the fullest of ways. As masternode has pointed out in a very nice and polite way, Terpin is a car salesman, who is leaching off the Dash community for his profiteering scheme. I have worked for tech companies since I was 16 and I have seen these types over and over. Go into ANY eCommerce (I have worked at these places) company and go to the sales floor where they sell marketing packages comprised of half baked search, outdated concepts bad bloated projects and tell me it doesn't scream Terpin...

Anyone can contact http://www.prnewswire.com/ and dot he same exact thing Terpin is doing , for a hell of alot less than 6k a month. ESPECIALLY with an irrevocable contract in place. You are setting us up to waste a crap load of money on this guy for no reason.

If anyone would like to have open discussions on these subjects, you are more than welcome to join the Public Dash Slack channel.
 
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BolehVPN

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I'm ok for long term contracts but voting no as there has to be a mechanism to exit the contract in the event of breach of non performance.
Either this is done by the proposer or have a certain vote threshold.

Since the proposer is the one who tends to be bound to the contract, he should have the right to cancel the contract and stop payments. Maybe even without the vote. After all if it was a popular proposal, it can be resubmitted again by another person. Or is this already in place with the existing system?

There should be also another way to cancel which is to vote it out with a higher threshold than what was required to pass it.
 

stan.distortion

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A couple of things I don't get here, why the high level of opposition to a PR proposal when the budgeting is barely even reaching capacity (let alone competition between proposals) and why the continued deviation away from discussing improvements to the budgeting system and onto a single example? I'd missed most of the early parts of this discussion and taking the current state on spec, logic points to competition between PR companies. Hard to believe but if so its not healthy competition, quite the opposite as its getting the community hung up on something that's little more than a triviality compared with the budgeting system as a whole.

I'm no fan of PR and think the system is quite capable of standing on its own merits but the world doesn't work that way these days, build a better mousetrap and the world doesn't beat a path to your door, it beats a path to the door of the of the inferior mousetrap with fancier packaging and promises of increased sex appeal and you only need to compare PR budgets with development budgets of leading products to see proof of that. We need PR whether we like it or not and we're fortunate to have people in the community who understand it.
 
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TheDashGuy

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A couple of things I don't get here, why the high level of opposition to a PR proposal when the budgeting is barely even reaching capacity (let alone competition between proposals) and why the continued deviation away from discussing improvements to the budgeting system and onto a single example? I'd missed most of the early parts of this discussion and taking the current state on spec, logic points to competition between PR companies. Hard to believe but if so its not healthy competition, quite the opposite as its getting the community hung up on something that's little more than a triviality compared with the budgeting system as a whole.

I'm no fan of PR and think the system is quite capable of standing on its own merits but the world doesn't work that way these days, build a better mousetrap and the world doesn't beat a path to your door, it beats a path to the door of the of the inferior mousetrap with fancier packaging and promises of increased sex appeal and you only need to compare PR budgets with development budgets of leading products to see proof of that. We need PR whether we like it or not and we're fortunate to have people in the community who understand it.

Half of my arguing and complaining is due to the nature of the PR company and the idea behind why we are going with them.

Some people think a PR company is going to get us users and/or whales so they can increase thier net worth in the Dash ecosystem. And I DARE anyone to PROVE this isn't the case.

As I have repeatedly said; who hires a PR company when the product isn't even finished yet? Who markets before they build and support the product?

Evolution is a long ways out, we do not need a PR company. It's a waste of money. We need to be investing into other small community projects and building a platform for PEOPLE, not for companies like Transform to leech off of. We have an amazing system, why not use it? Why not show it off? Wy are we asking a PR company to come save the day?


You know why? Because we have too many short term profiteering type around here still and I honestly Hope the Dash price tanks so we can weed these people out. They are not good for the long term strategy needed for Dash to succeed.

There is a reason investors have rules about selling share and such, they are always in it for the profit.


Please stop thinking with your wallets people, lets use some grit and good ol fashioned sweat instead of hiring some PR firm who just wants your money, for the least amount of effort.

Some links:

http://seedcamp.com/resources/when-does-it-make-sense-to-hire-a-pr-agency/
http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/03/how-to-hire-a-pr-firm-dont-do-it/
http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/246044
https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/business/trends-and-insights/articles/6things-to-know-before-you-hire-a-pr-firm/

Since noone is going to read them, mostly it just says, Startups DO NOT NEED PR. Go ahead read them.
 
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stan.distortion

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And how do you define "finished"? Dash is one of the most advanced cryptos out there and more than ready for mainstream adoption right now so how much further does it need to go to justify promotion? Dash will hopefully never be "finished", there will always be room for improvement no matter how good it gets and hopefully those improvements can be made quickly and efficiently and avoid wasting time and resources arguing over trivialities because that's exactly the problem that has damaged Bitcoins credibility.
 

TheDashGuy

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And how do you define "finished"? Dash is one of the most advanced cryptos out there and more than ready for mainstream adoption right now so how much further does it need to go to justify promotion? Dash will hopefully never be "finished", there will always be room for improvement no matter how good it gets and hopefully those improvements can be made quickly and efficiently and avoid wasting time and resources arguing over trivialities because that's exactly the problem that has damaged Bitcoins credibility.

Is that an argument that we should be hiring a PR firm instead of building out a decentralized marketing arm of Dash?

Or are you actually trying to tell me we should be hiring a PR firm because it's not a waste of money and it would do us good?

How would this PR firm theoretically help us? I'm all ears. I'd love to hear how & why investing a HUGE chunk (around 6k) of our budget each month is worth it.

I won't hold my breath though.
 

raganius

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High threshold also means high participation which is not guaranteed. Could end up being a `perfection is paralysis` kinda` thing.

Also, what I'd like to see is faster payouts if possible. We could miss some cool events for example because funding is weeks away. Why not have weekly budget payouts?

*sidenote: Look at the price action of our competition following Amanda's interview. I think hiring her would be totally worth it. We should encourage her to put up a proposal.
Yes, I agree that a higher threshold for appovals will depend on more voting participation. But, from my point of view:

1. The Masternode owners have got the duty to expediently serve the network. Voting is part of their work here. So "ideally" they are supposed to carry out their function appropriately;

2. If Masternode owners are not willing to do their work, they will be damaging DASH, thus hurting their investment. (Does it mean the system does not work?).

A lower threshold is perfectly OK for me, but it still demands that the Masternode owners be responsible, anyway (not voting out of hype, for example).


I'm ok for long term contracts but voting no as there has to be a mechanism to exit the contract in the event of breach of non performance.
Either this is done by the proposer or have a certain vote threshold.

Since the proposer is the one who tends to be bound to the contract, he should have the right to cancel the contract and stop payments. Maybe even without the vote. After all if it was a popular proposal, it can be resubmitted again by another person. Or is this already in place with the existing system?

There should be also another way to cancel which is to vote it out with a higher threshold than what was required to pass it.
Sure, there must always be a way to responsibly cancel the contract, as long as the community is convinced that the contractor is not performing as expected. That's why a clear an open periodical report from the part of the contractor is necessary, in order to keep the community updated.


And how do you define "finished"? Dash is one of the most advanced cryptos out there and more than ready for mainstream adoption right now so how much further does it need to go to justify promotion? Dash will hopefully never be "finished", there will always be room for improvement no matter how good it gets and hopefully those improvements can be made quickly and efficiently and avoid wasting time and resources arguing over trivialities because that's exactly the problem that has damaged Bitcoins credibility.
I agree. At first I was against marketing, but now I see how important it is for DASH now. I take BTC or even NEM (xem) as examples, with their (in my opinion) efficient marketing campaigns.

There will never be a perfectly finished DASH. Actually, no software product of success is ever final. There are always updates and improvements.
 

raganius

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Is that an argument that we should be hiring a PR firm instead of building out a decentralized marketing arm of Dash?

Or are you actually trying to tell me we should be hiring a PR firm because it's not a waste of money and it would do us good?

How would this PR firm theoretically help us? I'm all ears. I'd love to hear how & why investing a HUGE chunk (around 6k) of our budget each month is worth it.

I won't hold my breath though.
If doing it decentralised works: even better.

The point is, from what I understand, we need to educate people about cryptocurrencies and DASH. But the budget to do it must not be so expensive as to cripple other important priorities (like development and research).
 

TheDashGuy

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If doing it decentralised works: even better.

The point is, from what I understand, we need to educate people about cryptocurrencies and DASH. But the budget to do it must not be so expensive as to cripple other important priorities (like development and research).

So lets hold off on the running to a CENTRALIZED company for now and actually try to set up a decentralized marketing team first..

inb4 "we already tried that, it didn't work"

The past 2 years has not counted as marketing, if you think the team was actually doing QUALITY work on getting Dash out there in peoples face, you are sorely mistaken. 2 people is NOT a decentralized marketing team. Tungfa/Daniel do what they can, but this is an open sourced project the size of the moon, surely we need more than 2 dedicated marketers....


Also, why the hell is there not an ambassador program???
 

stan.distortion

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Is that an argument that we should be hiring a PR firm instead of building out a decentralized marketing arm of Dash?

Or are you actually trying to tell me we should be hiring a PR firm because it's not a waste of money and it would do us good?

How would this PR firm theoretically help us? I'm all ears. I'd love to hear how & why investing a HUGE chunk (around 6k) of our budget each month is worth it.

I won't hold my breath though.
A PR firm or decentralised markets? Why not both? And considering we're second place to a crypt with no technical merit over other coins and popularised solely by a meme then marketing undoubtedly has its merits.
 
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TheDashGuy

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A PR firm or decentralised markets? Why not both? And considering we're second place to a crypt with no technical merit over other coins and popularised solely by a meme then marketing undoubtedly has its merits.
Sadly the budget is not big enough to shell out for both ideas.

hence why we shouldn't be blowing it all on a COMPLETELY UNPROVEN PR Company.

Thats all i'm saying, all of our eggs are in the Transform PR basket, and its a huge turn off to the marketers in this community who would gladly help out if given a path or an ambassador program.

But yet here we are, arguing about hiring a CENTRALIZED company or not.

I'm sure they are looking out for Dash more than their bottom line..... /s
 

raganius

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So lets hold off on the running to a CENTRALIZED company for now and actually try to set up a decentralized marketing team first..

inb4 "we already tried that, it didn't work"

The past 2 years has not counted as marketing, if you think the team was actually doing QUALITY work on getting Dash out there in peoples face, you are sorely mistaken. 2 people is NOT a decentralized marketing team. Tungfa/Daniel do what they can, but this is an open sourced project the size of the moon, surely we need more than 2 dedicated marketers....


Also, why the hell is there not an ambassador program???

But, as far I could understand, we alredy have a marketing team on the budget (or am I mistaken?).

Part of the "Core Team Budget" covers it: https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=12910682
 
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TheDashGuy

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But, as far as I could understand, we alredy have a marketing team on the budget (or am I mistaken?).
Tungfa and Daniel?

Not to be rude or anything but do you really think 2 people can handle a project this big alone? First off Tungfa is more of a investor/community liaison who helps out on marketing. Daniel is a business development guy. Neither of which are actually trained full-time marketers.

Don't get me started on the SEO, Adwords, Advertising side of marketing either.

My point is, there is too much to do. Transform PR is going to RAPE us in the wallets to get it all done. And our current team is too small to do it.

So what's the obvious solution here? Write up an ambassador program, enlist the volunteers in the community. Stop hoping for Transform PR to do your job for you.

If they won't do it, someone will. It's just a matter of time, so until then, lets just NOT waste our funds on a crap PR Company trying to make a quick profit.

PLEASE.

Source: I have been doing Web & Graphic Design, Search Engine Optimization (The legitimate type), Marketing/Advertising, & building/helping build startups and small businesses for over 8 years now.
 

ericsammons

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It is unfortunate that this proposal has been lumped in with the Terpin contract, as they are two completely different issues. This has caused the core issue - multi-month contracts - to be somewhat lost in the shuffle. For that reason I agree with Tungfa that the issue of PR should be tabled in this thread - let it be hashed out when someone makes a new PR proposal.

Regarding the proposal itself (which includes "Transform PR" in the title but is really unrelated to it), I brought up the issue of the need for a cancellation mechanism shortly after it was proposed last Monday, but haven't heard any response to that. I understand everyone - especially Evan - is quite busy, but since that time, that seems to be the major concern of most people here. (Of course, the proposal is currently set to easily pass, so perhaps the concern here isn't held by most MN owners).

I very much support the creation of multi-month contracts, but until some type of cancellation mechanism is built in, my votes on this have to be "no." If it were re-submitted with a proper cancellation mechanism included (and I'd be happy to donate the 5 Dash if needed), I would vote "yes."
 

Geert

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Mon′day morn′ing quar′terback

n.
a person who offers hindsight solutions to problems already faced by others.
[1940–45]

If proposals pass and they don't work out so well, so be it. We learn by failures -- not successes. To have people second-guessing every passed proposal in real-time is a recipe for chaos.
 
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bertlebbert

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Title of this thread mentions Terpin, and OP link (Proposal For Next Contract) to pdf file titled,
Dash, Three-Month Public Relations Proposal, (February 7 – May 6, 2016)...

Just to be clear, is a new Terpin contract part of this proposal?
In other words, does voting yes to this proposal also mean establishing a new Terpin contract?

(edit: fixed link)
 
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InTheWoods

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Title of this thread mentions Terpin, and OP link (Proposal For Next Contract) to pdf file titled,
Dash, Three-Month Public Relations Proposal, (February 7 – May 6, 2016)...

Just to be clear, is a new Terpin contract part of this proposal?
In other words, does voting yes to this proposal also mean establishing a new Terpin contract?
If so it's lame to have bundled the two together. I'd vote yes for contracts but no to Terpin just like many others.
 

TroyDASH

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It's not lumped in technically -- the Budget System v2 / Transform PR budget item only funds the 50 DASH. It just needs to be clear that anyone voting for the reimbursement does not necessarily indicate support for another Transform PR contract or support for the irrevokable multi-month contract proposal exactly as it was outlined in the OP.
 

bertlebbert

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If so it's lame to have bundled the two together. I'd vote yes for contracts but no to Terpin just like many others.
Yeah, it's not entirely clear, but this proposal may actually include three proposals:
1. Re-vamp existing budget system.
2. Establish a new contract with Terpin.
3. Reimburse 50 Dash to Evan.
 
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TroyDASH

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Yeah, it's not entirely clear, but this proposal may actually include three proposals:
1. Re-vamp existing budget system.
2. Establish a new contract with Terpin.
3. Reimburse 50 Dash to Evan.
I really don't think #1 and #2 should have anything to do with this. People may want to reimburse Evan the 50 DASH but don't support the proposals in the OP. It would be disingenuous for Evan or anybody else to take a "yes" vote as evidence about a network consensus about #1 and #2, so I think those items needs to be clarified and removed from consideration. I am voting no until this happens
 
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I really don't think #1 and #2 should have anything to do with this. People may want to reimburse Evan the 50 DASH but don't support the proposals in the OP. It would be disingenuous for Evan or anybody else to take a "yes" vote as evidence about a network consensus about #1 and #2, so I think those items needs to be clarified and removed from consideration. I am voting no until this happens
I've been following the conversation here and this is the sentiment I agree with. From my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the 50 dash reimbursement is lumped into another proposal and they are considered one? Or all three of these proposals are considered one? Politicians do this all the time when passing bills. Please clarify so people can make a clear decision. I'll be voting no for Terpin either way, so if you lump your other proposals in with that one your just asking for more no votes.
 
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Bridgewater

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Half of my arguing and complaining is due to the nature of the PR company and the idea behind why we are going with them.

Some people think a PR company is going to get us users and/or whales so they can increase thier net worth in the Dash ecosystem. And I DARE anyone to PROVE this isn't the case.

As I have repeatedly said; who hires a PR company when the product isn't even finished yet? Who markets before they build and support the product?

Evolution is a long ways out, we do not need a PR company. It's a waste of money. We need to be investing into other small community projects and building a platform for PEOPLE, not for companies like Transform to leech off of. We have an amazing system, why not use it? Why not show it off? Wy are we asking a PR company to come save the day?


You know why? Because we have too many short term profiteering type around here still and I honestly Hope the Dash price tanks so we can weed these people out. They are not good for the long term strategy needed for Dash to succeed.

There is a reason investors have rules about selling share and such, they are always in it for the profit.


Please stop thinking with your wallets people, lets use some grit and good ol fashioned sweat instead of hiring some PR firm who just wants your money, for the least amount of effort.

Some links:

http://seedcamp.com/resources/when-does-it-make-sense-to-hire-a-pr-agency/
http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/03/how-to-hire-a-pr-firm-dont-do-it/
http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/246044
https://www.americanexpress.com/us/...s/6-things-to-know-before-you-hire-a-pr-firm/

Since noone is going to read them, mostly it just says, Startups DO NOT NEED PR. Go ahead read them.
TheDashGuy

So just to be clear, the purpose of your involvement here in Dash is NOT to profit in any way? I don't get it.
 

tungfa

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Why would we drop it? It needs to be discussed because obviously there is a HUGE disconnect between the ideals and methods of the core team and some of the community. And for us to move forward we NEED to be on the same page.

Also, why are we SOOOOO set on Transform PR? I would happily cause a shit storm again unless it's discussed in the fullest of ways. As masternode has pointed out in a very nice and polite way, Terpin is a car salesman, who is leaching off the Dash community for his profiteering scheme. I have worked for tech companies since I was 16 and I have seen these types over and over. Go into ANY eCommerce (I have worked at these places) company and go to the sales floor where they sell marketing packages comprised of half baked search, outdated concepts bad bloated projects and tell me it doesn't scream Terpin...

Anyone can contact http://www.prnewswire.com/ and dot he same exact thing Terpin is doing , for a hell of alot less than 6k a month. ESPECIALLY with an irrevocable contract in place. You are setting us up to waste a crap load of money on this guy for no reason.

If anyone would like to have open discussions on these subjects, you are more than welcome to join the Public Dash Slack channel.
Terpin is done !
do not put words in my mouth here , I am NOT selling him at all , I am trying the mellow out this endless discussion which is going in a circle , nothing else