Budget Proposal: Hire Bitcoin Core Developer to work for Dash

acidburn

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You have some interesting points and whilst I would support such a move I can't help but be sceptical about any of the core developers taking us up on our offer. You're basically asking them to jump ship in the hope of... So they'll be accepting a contract which will be a monthly one.
 
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raganius

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It would be great for marketing. But, I wonder how committed a btc dev would be.

Unless we choose a real professional person (not too much emotionally attached to BTC), I'm affraid a btc developer would not do his best for DASH: He could only be here for the buck, or his presence could turn out to be unproductive to the team (if pride causes a "war of egos", for example).
 

nmarley

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That's a lot of money you're proposing to give them - not even Dash core devs get anywhere near that. And I think that your estimated benefits from the proposal may not go as planned. It sounds extremely idealistic, and that's probably an understatement. I read a whole of of "it would's" in there, which take a lot of your desired outcomes for granted, and that might not be how things really turn out at all.

And I thought of it as just wishful thinking that wouldn't happen for years down the road, if ever.
I don't think that it would take that long... you even mention Evolution yourself a few paragraphs down, and how that would bring attention to Dash. And honestly, I don't think that a Bitcoin core dev working on Dash would be a necessity — look how far it's come already with our current team.


My proposal is that we hire a developer from the Bitcoin core dev team...

...

This would not only strengthen the Dash development team, but it would provide more free marketing than we would know what to do with. Even just the rumor before it actually happened of a core team member leaving Bitcoin to work for Dash would make the price explode- leading to more free press. People would finally take a good look at Dash and realize that it is a real competitor to Bitcoin, not just another alt coin.
It might not strengthen the team, though. In fact, isn't there also a possibility that it could weaken it? What if Mike (or whomever) doesn't agree with the other Dash developer's direction?

I'd say we already have a solid team, and I would be worried that too many minds working on the same task could be counter-productive, re: Brooks' Law.

It seems like this would be a publicity stunt to get attention rather than an actual need for a Bitcoin core dev on the Dash team. Evolution's coming along in its own time and I think that the current Dash development leadership is doing a pretty good job. Personally, I don't feel that hiring another dev at a hugely inflated salary is something that we really need right now.

If the price of Dash just doubled with the news of Mike Hearn joining, Evolution, or both (which I think is a pretty safe bet that it would), we come to total compensation of $129,043.20, or $258,086.40 per year- more than the Bitcoin Chief Scientist, more than most Google software engineers, etc. You get the picture.

...we'd be getting not just a talented developer for the Dash team, but also non-stop free publicity. We would get publicity in the crypto-community. Everyone would start to doubt Bitcoin and hedge their bets in Dash. We would get publicity outside of the crypto-community. People who think they missed the boat on Bitcoin would see it as their opportunity. Then with Evolution and the DAPI, etc. people would see that cryptocurrency does have easy and practical use in the real world.

-The price of Dash would explode if a Bitcoin core dev joined the Dash Development team. Even if we, in my opinion, grossly underestimate the price increase of Dash that would take place if this occurred at 2x (price now $2.60/Dash, price after announcement $5.20/Dash) the amounts would be huge and the developer would have major incentive to work and help Dash grow. That's around $35000 in salary and signing bonus the first month. At 6 months- or most likely even sooner, the price would be high enough that another job offer could be extended- possibly even to another Bitcoin core dev.
That sounds like a lot of hopium, and I would be worried about too much publicity too soon. There's a reason the Dash core dev team didn't release many details on Evolution until about a month or so ago, and why they're waiting until January to unveil a demo to the world.
 

InTheWoods

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The problem with hiring Bitcoin core devs is in short EGO. All of these guys have immense egos and they all think they're some hot shit and they would charge exorbitant fees. Not only this but they won't work on DASH exclusively. I think it's a pass.

Best case scenario they will accept to be "consultants" which is code for ripoff. I know few such consultants (high profile community heroes) that bankrupted a few crypto projects with exorbitant fees while delivering shitty work.

Most of these Bitcoin devs, "community heroes" are more concerned with building their own credentials and promoting themselves than promoting and helping to grow a project.
 
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InTheWoods

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@Patellaport

If we were to be associated with a name, I'd say let's hire Nick Szabo to work on some stuff. His mere presence at the Ethereum conference jacked up the price of Ether like crazy.

Some speculated in the past he is Satoshi. Most of the other Bitcoin devs are overpaid and overrated. They were just there in the right place at the right time, fully invested, willing and able to work on Bitcoin.
 

crowning

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...why would a Bitcoin developer listen to Evan...
Simply put, because they're being paid a lot of money to listen to Evan.
People are in a COMPLETELY different mindset when they are paid for something (like Gavin would) compared to when they BELIEVE in something (like, everyone else right now).

If one of the Bitcoin core-devs would believe in Dash he would already be here.
 

raganius

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People are in a COMPLETELY different mindset when they are paid for something (like Gavin would) compared to when they BELIEVE in something (like, everyone else right now).
(...)
Exactly what I meant with commitment.

(...)
If one of the Bitcoin core-devs would believe in Dash he would already be here.
The problem is if they are feeling "embarassed to change teams". It would take some kind of incentive (even some lame excuse) to justify their "mindset change". (I guess this rule would apply to anyone ... Sunk Cost Fallacy effect?).
 
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tungfa

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the idea in general is great
but
it comes down to personal contact (with them) and a commitment (not based on finances)
whatever we can pay will not be what the market give proper programmers these days.
the conferences we will be doing (Miami , Mexico) and the perfect places to make these personal contacts , they do not only have to believe in dash , but in Evan (+ like him , his ideas and his vision)
I am not saying that the conferences will bring us BTC developers , but I think this is a good step in the right direction.

All Altcoin are a market of madness , trolls , fudsters, scam brothers ,.... for the outside people , they hear about us maybe but do not know and trust what is really going on . this takes time !
we are building the right foundation ... and time is on our side !
 

raganius

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If Szabo is unhappy with bitcoin's "current state of affairs" he would gladly migrate to something new, I believe (especially if, indeed, he is mr. 中本). But, I guess he would demand discretion... so, maybe, this idea would not work "marketingwise".
 

stan.distortion

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People are in a COMPLETELY different mindset when they are paid for something (like Gavin would) compared to when they BELIEVE in something (like, everyone else right now).

If one of the Bitcoin core-devs would believe in Dash he would already be here.
+1, if they have to be paid to take an interest then the price is too high regardless of how much.
 

Sapereaude

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The key question to ask is this just a marketing stunt? Because from that perspective it makes perfect sense to get a competing developer to "offically" switch sides.

However once they are here, what would they be working on exactly? Perhaps if there was a specific issue or problem we needed them to work on then I might be behind the idea(think when Atlas did the code review). Anything else is equivalent to an endorsement deal and I believe there are better marketing strategies for the cost.

Plus once evolution is out I'm guessing we will see a plethora of developers.
 

David

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I admire your creativity and I like where you're coming from, but I disagree with this plan for one very, very big reason:

Evan, Udjin, Flare, and the other full-time core developers get paid an average of 100 DASH ($250) per month*, or 1200 DASH ($3000) per year. You want to bring in a third-party and pay them over $100k USD when Evan himself is only getting paid $3k USD per year????

Every developer we have would quit--and rightly so. You can't go pay an outsider 40x what you're paying your internal team and expect that to work out very well.

*https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=12910682
 

ilia_2s

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I suppose that Patellaport's proposal is very good for PR. Also, I have a doubts about a real contributions of BTC developers and about contribution/price rate. I seriously intend to support this proposal, but it's need to smooth some points, that described upper. I think that you should think about PR budget and about contacts whith a big count of newsmaker-sites to post this news (if this happens). And the next question is "How to motivate BTC developer to work for dash for a long time without a large constant outlay.
 

stan.distortion

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Our developers aren't working out of the goodness of their hearts and they aren't working for the 58.3 Dash they get each month either. They're working because they're holding enough that if they create something great and the price increases it will have been worth it. In order to get someone who holds no Dash to work for and to be invested in the project we need to give them a ton of Dash.
...
People are motivated for all kinds of reasons, not all of them are profit related.

As other posters have said, its worth considering what this budget proposal actually aims to achieve. Is it aimed at bringing the benefits of a Bitcoin core devs experience to Dash or at bringing their endorsement of Dash? I'd support the latter if it had technical merit, a code review maybe, but not Gavin with a cheesy grin in an "I heart Dash" T-shirt and I doubt he'd be interested in anything remotely like that either, not for reward anyway.
 

raganius

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I admire your creativity and I like where you're coming from, but I disagree with this plan for one very, very big reason:

Evan, Udjin, Flare, and the other full-time core developers get paid an average of 100 DASH ($250) per month*, or 1200 DASH ($3000) per year. You want to bring in a third-party and pay them over $100k USD when Evan himself is only getting paid $3k USD per year????

Every developer we have would quit--and rightly so. You can't go pay an outsider 40x what you're paying your internal team and expect that to work out very well.

*https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=12910682
People are motivated for all kinds of reasons, not all of them are profit related.

As other posters have said, its worth considering what this budget proposal actually aims to achieve. Is it aimed at bringing the benefits of a Bitcoin core devs experience to Dash or at bringing their endorsement of Dash? I'd support the latter if it had technical merit, a code review maybe, but not Gavin with a cheesy grin in an "I heart Dash" T-shirt and I doubt he'd be interested in anything remotely like that either, not for reward anyway.
Indeed. With Patellaport's proposal (even though it's a tempting proposal) we would be touching this very sensitive situation. I'm affraid we'd risk having bad consequences outweighing the good ones.
 

Naruto

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My proposal is that we hire a developer from the Bitcoin core dev team (probably Mike Hearn due to how he most likely feels about Bitcoin development at this point). I don't know what they have in terms of contracts, if anything, but everyone has their price. This would not only strengthen the Dash development team, but it would provide more free marketing than we would know what to do with. Even just the rumor before it actually happened of a core team member leaving Bitcoin to work for Dash would make the price explode- leading to more free press. People would finally take a good look at Dash and realize that it is a real competitor to Bitcoin, not just another alt coin.
......
.
So this is all about publicity? Or there is some actual function/objective that we cannot get without those people. ?
 
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Sapereaude

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I am confused why are you talking about phases, when we have barely begun discussing:

a) What the hell would a bitcoin dev do on this project
b) Would this contribution be worthwhile
c) If not is this endorsement/marketing worth the price e.g maybe the money would be better spend elsewhere
d) The possible negative effect it would have on the current dev team
e) If this is the right time for this, perhaps after evolution is complete
f) A bunch of other issues that have been raised

I get that your amped on the idea of a bitcoin dev jumping ship and the price exploding, but phases are at the bottom of a long list of considerations.
 
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David

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The amount is big, I know. And it's huge compared to Evan and the rest of the team's current compensation. But it's not that big compared to salaries of what these developers could be making. If we make some big moves with the money we have right now, we'll eventually have enough in the budget to pay salaries to our current great dev team. It's all about making sure that people have the right incentives. Our developers aren't working out of the goodness of their hearts and they aren't working for the 58.3 Dash they get each month either. They're working because they're holding enough that if they create something great and the price increases it will have been worth it. In order to get someone who holds no Dash to work for and to be invested in the project we need to give them a ton of Dash.
I realize that Evan is greatly motivated by his personal holdings of Dash, and I'm sure most of the other devs are as well. But paying an outsider ONE HUNDRED THIRTY THREE TIMES* what you are paying the guy who *invented the entire currency* is a massive slap in the face. I cannot possibly think of anything more insulting.

"Here you go Evan. Here's your 50 Dash for the month. Oh hey Gavin, here's your 6600 Dash for your months' work."

(Evan currently gets about 50 Dash per month. Your proposal suggests paying an outsider in the neighborhood of $200K per year, which is presently 133x Evan's annual pay at the current price of Dash.)
 

GermanRed+

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I have some other idea. Why not we somehow use our second tier network for bitcoin mixing as well? I know the dark net is doing it. It does not hurt to provide that bitcoin mixing on a dash MN network if Evan will still call it MN network in a few months. The BTC network can gain its InstantX and coin mixing all here with the DASH second tier network with a small fee.

EDIT: I meant some service on the dark net is doing the bitcoin mixing. I think the name is Bitcoin Fog Company.
 
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David

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I have some other idea. Why not we somehow use our second tier network for bitcoin mixing as well? I know the dark net is doing it. It does not hurt to provide that bitcoin mixing on a dash MN network if Evan will still call it MN network in a few months. The BTC network can gain its InstantX and coin mixing all here with the DASH second tier network with a small fee.

EDIT: I meant some service on the dark net is doing the bitcoin mixing. I think the name is Bitcoin Fog Company.
Pretty sure the services are all centralized and require trust since obfuscation is not built into the protocol. You'd have to send them bitcoins which they mix with other people's coins, and then if you're lucky they send you some coins back. Dash does it all at the protocol level, eliminating the need for trust because your money never leaves your wallet.
 

David

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Hypothetically, let's say you convince Gavin to come work for us. Every Bitcoin publication in the world trumpets the headlines. Dash soars in value. I think you're right--this is exactly what will happen. But let me add to your plan:

Phase IV--After the initial hype, the price of Dash returns to where it was previously. Nothing in the project has fundamentally changed, the coin is not fundamentally better, we just have one more talented developer on top of our existing multi-person development team. In the meantime, Evan is insulted that we are paying someone new 133x his annual "salary" and becomes less motivated.

Phase V--Gavin doesn't actually believe in Dash, he's just working for a check. He has a big head and thinks he knows everything, because he was lead dev for the granddaddy of them all, and how dare anyone from a $14 million coin tell him how to code. After all, he was "in charge" of a $5 billion coin. Disagreements arise, and even if he stays, he doesn't do his best work because he's working for something he doesn't believe in. I've never once heard of a startup that changed the world by hiring "non-believers" and paying them enormous salaries. All the ones I can think of--certainly in the tech field--were started by "true believers," visionaries who worked for a pittance in exchange for significant equity and a chance to see their dream come to life.

Anyway, I'm going to stop posting now because this is your thread, and I have no intention of derailing it. I personally admire your thinking outside the box and I think that's a very good thing for Dash. I just think this particular idea is a non-starter, and I'm 99% sure that the vote would never pass in any event. I do hope you keep coming up with ideas like this though, because they are certainly very intriguing and thought-provoking!
 

raganius

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(..)
Can you please name some of the bad consequences?(...)
David's hypothesis, for example, brings two possible bad outcomes:
  • Our current developers losing motivation;
  • The hired Bitcoin dev's arrogance becoming a huge problem.

Also, if the hired Bitcoin dev happens to be a total jerk, too proud to admit BTC is not enough, he may not ever commit himself to our project. He could, for example, receive the money we pay and, out of pure disdain, dump all the received DASH. In the end he could leave us, boasting everywhere (lying, of course) that he left DASH because it's inferior to BTC, etc... :what:

Hypothetically, let's say you convince Gavin to come work for us. Every Bitcoin publication in the world trumpets the headlines. Dash soars in value. I think you're right--this is exactly what will happen. But let me add to your plan:

Phase IV--After the initial hype, the price of Dash returns to where it was previously. Nothing in the project has fundamentally changed, the coin is not fundamentally better, we just have one more talented developer on top of our existing multi-person development team. In the meantime, Evan is insulted that we are paying someone new 133x his annual "salary" and becomes less motivated.

Phase V--Gavin doesn't actually believe in Dash, he's just working for a check. He has a big head and thinks he knows everything, because he was lead dev for the granddaddy of them all, and how dare anyone from a $14 million coin tell him how to code. After all, he was "in charge" of a $5 billion coin. Disagreements arise, and even if he stays, he doesn't do his best work because he's working for something he doesn't believe in. I've never once heard of a startup that changed the world by hiring "non-believers" and paying them enormous salaries. All the ones I can think of--certainly in the tech field--were started by "true believers," visionaries who worked for a pittance in exchange for significant equity and a chance to see their dream come to life.

Anyway, I'm going to stop posting now because this is your thread, and I have no intention of derailing it. I personally admire your thinking outside the box and I think that's a very good thing for Dash. I just think this particular idea is a non-starter, and I'm 99% sure that the vote would never pass in any event. I do hope you keep coming up with ideas like this though, because they are certainly very intriguing and thought-provoking!
Maybe a short movie like this,
, could have much better marketing effects :D
 
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GermanRed+

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Pretty sure the services are all centralized and require trust since obfuscation is not built into the protocol. You'd have to send them bitcoins which they mix with other people's coins, and then if you're lucky they send you some coins back. Dash does it all at the protocol level, eliminating the need for trust because your money never leaves your wallet.
That's exactly why I think we will have a DASH second tier network product for those who want to mix their BTC. We have a decentralized solution for them with all their wanted features that would be too hard to implement on their network because their developers cannot even agree on issues like block size and etc.
 
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bluebit

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I'd like to hear Evan's take on this. He's the main dev and it's vital that any other devs added have a good relationship with the main dev.