bounties, growth and sustainability

r-ando

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A possibly unpopular thought is that maybe one day a small percentage of masternode-mining fees could go to a wallet operated by the Darkcoin Foundation and Evan. Then the community as a whole could vote on new bounties regularly over time and pay the rewards with those funds. Measurable objectives and achievements that when done and validated by Evan and the Foundation give right to the bounty. Then we start a bounty for creating Internet 2.0 and we start filling the wallet for the bounty :) Eventually, people might start competing to fulfill objectives

Here is a way it could work.

we create a voting list where people can propose Darkcoin objectives. Members of Darkcoin talk vote on which top 10 objectives they would want to see prioritized each month.

The top 10 on the list get an equal share of the bounty funding attributed equally between them.

When new objectives are voted to the top because they become more important, the ones that get pushed down keep the DRK that was put aside for them assigned to them. When they are promoted back to the top 10, we start increasing their bounty again. Now I think that is a cool system :)

And I think it would be an extra way of thanking and rewarding the Devs for their efforts, attracting other Devs with different specialties who have ideas for other features, get the guys competing to work on Darkcoin :) so one day Darkcoin will have a diversified evolving and sustainable product line of anonymous services and options running through the masternodes attracting talented devs from around the world, also serving the joint purpose of bringing the worlds best developers together for a great purpose and cause, for humanity!.
 
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r-ando

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Hi crowning, I would donate too but I'd rather not have too... hahaha, please bear with me

It wouldn't be to lose value but to create value. Here is the other side to the coin that it would be a fee. (oh no bad pun I know :) )

What I'm suggesting is more network (re)investment. The idea being to invest 1 dollar to create 2.

For example, how much more valuable could Darkcoin be with Darktor? If it would increase the value of your holdings by lets say 1000% and would require less investment than 0.1 or whatever percent (of profits...), would this cease to be a fee and become an investment?

Why does this seem so shocking? Because we havn't seen it before.

The reason being that Bitcoins developer dissapeared.

Do you think if he came back and told the bitcoin community he would keep working on Bitcoin with other developpers to keep making it better and better and more valuable but needed a small fee, to pay transparent bounties, that this wouldn't be embraced? I'd think they would be happy to give back to the dev if he wanted to work on the bounties, why ask for donations and have that uncertainty when you can just automate it and put all these cool new features in development. Do you imagine if they had had something like this in place and one of the bounties had been to make bitcoin anonymous? Maybe our developers would have worked on that! And thats what I want to do with other developers bring them to Darkcoin, lets give incentive for the best talent of the world to keep coming here.

I think it makes a lot of sense and ensures guarantee of continued development even 50 years from now, its like succession planning in a sense too. But your opinion is valid that it sucks to make less (fees), what I propose is that it would cease to be less if it was worth more... I think that it would add a lot of value and security to the project too from an outside investors (or developers) perspective :) Plus it would be super fun to be able to vote each month on what projects you think should be prioritized and see them come to life.
 
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crowning

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I'd like to argue that what you are saying doesn't make total sense.
Let me slightly disagree with you.

Let's say
  1. I'm an investor. I calculated my ROI based on the algorithms used in Darkcoin. Now you introduce a fee, which trashes all my calculations. Will the fee stay? Increase? Will there be another fee for other good reasons? Where will it end?
  2. I'm a developer. I fixed a small bug which would have completely brought down Darkcoin. Nothing more. The other developer creates sexy wallets. Lots of them. The people LOVE it. In a public vote, he WILL get the bounty. How do you measure the value of development?
  3. I'm Joe average. I like the trust-less way crypto-currencies work. But now I have to trust people who take money out of the system for their purposes.
  4. I'm a hardcore Bitcoin journalist. Of course I'll publish lots of articles about crypto-currencies which by design enrich the developers.
  5. I own the majority of Masternodes. Why does my vote on who's gonna get the bounty doesn't count more than others?
If you want money, ask. The funds of the Darkcoin foundation were collected this way, and it worked. Trying to get money out of the system by protocol changes will only do one thing to Darkcoin: destroy the trust.
 

r-ando

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Oh sorry crowning I tried to change that phrasing right after, I write really fast and often do a few modifications after I reread, it definitely wasn't ideal... my bad. :)

I'm going to go over your very valid points see if I can find possible benefits

  1. I'm an investor. I calculated my ROI based on the algorithms used in Darkcoin. Now you introduce a fee, which trashes all my calculations. Will the fee stay? Increase? Will there be another fee for other good reasons? Where will it end?
Good points. Definitely. The thing is as a company or entity in a sense Darkcoin needs to grow and always get better to increase its fundamental value over time. Its like investing in shares of a company like Apple, and in 6 months they announce they are going to use some of their funds to invest in a new product that that will increase the fundamental value of the company, meaning stock over time. What happens is yes some of the money leaves apples coffers, but they invest back in their company with the expectation that that investment will maintain their position in the market and ensure that they grow and gain market share and increased profits over time. Companies that don't have a proper established method for reinvestment have a harder time of it, a harder time seizing the momentum of their first movers advantage like Darkcoin has, as well as establishing a moat by publicity and brand recognition, which isn't in the interest of shareholders. ( the guys with the most masternodes being the biggest ones, as for stakeholders the whole world is a stakeholder so this is in a sense a responsibility to ourselves as innvestors and the world in which we live.

So to answer where will it end, I think that's really easy to answer, once its set up and once it's there it ends. It would have to be discussed extensively of course figure out details like you say, where would it end, I definitely know it would speed development along, we would probably have a bunch of devs show up, kind of like a way to recruit talent on a result oriented basis. Very effective. Maybe we would see dev marathons, where some devs go absolutely crazy and solve everything at lightning speed, one bounty after the hour like superheroes!
A small percentage to ensure continuity forever barely noticeable for miners of nodes and the benefits could be incredible over time.

The more little things like this we have the better we get I'm convinced, because it also shows how sure we are of Darkcoin. I also think it might give people a little bit of pride to know they are fully selfsustainable and able to support Darkcoin developers as a community. :)
  1. I'm a developer. I fixed a small bug which would have completely brought down Darkcoin. Nothing more. The other developer creates sexy wallets. Lots of them. The people LOVE it. In a public vote, he WILL get the bounty. How do you measure the value of development?
Once something gets solved then it frees up the place for another thing, or lets say a sudden emergency bug needs fixing, well then a process could automatically bump that problem onto the top 10 list, that would ensure that whoever solvesit would get a reward. Already, just that is cooland encourages people to try to fix bugs fast. Also if someone identifies a bug, its an incentive for him to reveal it, let it go to the top of the list and then solve it :) Our bug solvers heroes can get paid too.
  1. I'm Joe average. I like the trust-less way crypto-currencies work. But now I have to trust people who take money out of the system for their purposes.
They are developing the coin, you better trust them because they have put their trust in you by doing this publicly and transparently for everyone and I mean everyone, and its a lot of hard work. for the purposes of attracting the best talent to Darkcoin from all around the world, imagine genius kid born wherever sees a reward for a special Darkcoin project , genius kid decides to do it, we name him Evan jr. :) haha

  1. I'm a hardcore Bitcoin journalist. Of course I'll publish lots of articles about crypto-currencies which by design enrich the developers.
Real Journalism is about bringing the truth to the people :) Follow your heart and it will bring you to the true story.
  1. I own the majority of Masternodes. Why does my vote on who's gonna get the bounty doesn't count more than others?
If you have the best ideas and projects for darkcoin I'm sure people will vote for them anyways, and I have a feeling you have some of the best ideas! ;) Imagine a kind of Einstein guy shows up and starts giving us all advice but says he only has 1 masternode, having the most masternodes wouldn't you want his ideas making it too the top too :) So in this sense, you stand to make the most profit from sustainable appreciation of price over time, and also have the most to gain from attracting the best talent to Darkcoin, especially for such a low cost. I'm sure Evan and the other Devs could use an army of Devs to multitask a bunch of projects like large companies.

After all this there would also have to be a process for cancelling projects if no one solves them over time, the funds that would be recuperated could then be used to put up a billboard somewhere, bus stop signs, etc. over time... One day advertisement can help Darkcoin like it has helped others like Coca Cola, Apple, etc. One of the best ways to bring value to the largest investors for sure. And the faster we start it the better. So if we create a sustainable revenue now for Darkcoin as a company to reinvest in itself its basically the best thing we can do as shareholders both for business development and advertising. (not branding, that has been done already, advertising...) I wan to see billboards going up and I want to see the financing for it in place, that would be something to wake up to in the morning.
 
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r-ando

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I see it already, legendary hard to accomplish bounties going up in value exponentially creating a buzz over time creating crazy Darkcoin Jackpots for the lucky genius out there... I have a feeling we would hear a lot of... Evan solved it again! loooool Im not a betting man, but if I was Id bet on Evan for sure :) Or at least his dev team ;) Always bet on the Darkcoin team! Things would start developing really fast!
 
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Sapereaude

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Well why not just make it voluntary to automatically donate a percentage of your master node payments? I mean you wouldn't even necessarily need send it for bounties, but charities I bet would love this feature and I am certain would be great PR ( big banner on DCT linked to lets say Red Cross Donation and a few others address's being constantly updated)

Either way someone(from the foundation probably) has to even nominally be in charge of administrating the bounties and a list of bounties compiled by the Dev Team.
 
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r-ando

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Maybe even both of these eventualities could be implemented in time... I agree with your assessment, I think Evan and team would have to work it out with propulsion to see if a list working this way could be automatically setup in a section here on Darkcointalk. Getting some voting on what people would like to see on the top list could get a bunch of new people interested to sign up for accounts on Darkcointalk too which is always good imo (get the lurkers to surface) It could also attract developers who are unemployed or looking for work, or young geniuses too young to have a regular job lol, anyone who wants to check out the current list... I think both ideas have a lot of potential. The first idea is an established sustainable Darkcoin development and advertisement funding source that can be immediately implemented and put to good use (transparently and effectively) in a novel productive fair and fun way. It could be huge, imagine we have DarkTor for example on the list for a year, some guy decides he can do and wants the prize, while Evan is and the Dev Team are developing another aspect of the coin, he shows up for Christmas and announces he finished the coding is ready for the bounty and have happy new year Darkcoin Dev team less work for you. :)

Anyways just a thought, it would be really nice to see though, I can't wait to see some physical advertisement for one and if sustainable constant funding could be secured from the very beginning it would most likely become a reality much faster.
 

Funxy

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I think the voluntary contribution would be a better course of action. I think with the right processes, accountability and transparency in place you'll find the community more then willing to donate to see the project succeed. That's my two'pence!
 
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r-ando

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Hey Sapereaude, what happened? I'm looking for updates but didn't see anything yet
 

alex-ru

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bitcointalk.org/ eduffield/ March 16, 2015, 10:43:52 PM #90535
_____________________________________________________
Optional Donations of Masternode Income
Udjin and I just wrote an extension that allows the masternode network operators to voluntarily sponsor initiatives. This is a super powerful feature, you can specify that a percentage of your earnings will be redirected to any other address. I imagine people will lobby for an initiative, then they will post an address in the forums, if masternode operators supports it, they could donate 30% of their income (or any other amount).

Examples include:

- Sponsoring an advertising campaign
- Sponsoring development
- Donating to the Darkcoin Foundation's address

Another benefit of utilizing the protocol for something like this is, when used a percentage of payments will bypass you, creating no taxation (you never controlled the money at all).

https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commit/70164b2d4c507669aea0043ccde19226f49aaabd

* This is 100% voluntary, we'll never require donations. This line here is just for testing and has already been removed: https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoi...abd#diff-345a95f756731b98ecccf4a05e6bd4e2R113
_____________________________________________________

good news! :)
 
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ErrorId

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bitcointalk.org/ eduffield/ March 16, 2015, 10:43:52 PM #90535
_____________________________________________________
Optional Donations of Masternode Income
Udjin and I just wrote an extension that allows the masternode network operators to voluntarily sponsor initiatives. This is a super powerful feature, you can specify that a percentage of your earnings will be redirected to any other address. I imagine people will lobby for an initiative, then they will post an address in the forums, if masternode operators supports it, they could donate 30% of their income (or any other amount).

Examples include:

- Sponsoring an advertising campaign
- Sponsoring development
- Donating to the Darkcoin Foundation's address

Another benefit of utilizing the protocol for something like this is, when used a percentage of payments will bypass you, creating no taxation (you never controlled the money at all).

https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commit/70164b2d4c507669aea0043ccde19226f49aaabd

* This is 100% voluntary, we'll never require donations. This line here is just for testing and has already been removed: https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoi...abd#diff-345a95f756731b98ecccf4a05e6bd4e2R113
_____________________________________________________

good news! :)
Can anyone who can read the code tell me if this will allow us to assign donation percentages to more then one address? Let's say there's more than one bounty I want to donate to directly from my MN payments. Can I for instance donate 1.5% to bounty address one, 1.25% to bounty address two and 2.25% to bounty address three?

How granular can we get? or am I limited to donating to only one address per MN? If it allows for granular control this is huge! If not, I'd love to see it modified so that it allows donations of a fraction of a percent to hundreds of addresses. If we can do this then it becomes an extremely powerful tool.

Edit: Here's an example of what I'm thinking about for the future, say 1 DASH goes to 290USD, at that point it will cost 290,000USD to set up a MN. The dev team releases a way for holders of DASH to set up MN's using multiple wallets with varying amounts in them. With this tool we could have 10k people each committing 0.1 DASH and having automatic payouts. (simplified example because at fractions of DASH transaction fees would most likely come into play.)
 
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ErrorId

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One address, one percentage. And the percentage must be an Integer, so something like 3.14159% is not possible.
Thank you. I knew I was a little too excited but at least it's a first step. I hope people can see how much more powerful a tool this could be.
 
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UdjinM6

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Another note on that, just to make things clear and avoid possible confusions: current implementation simply switch payee for <percentage> of your MN payments on average, it does NOT split your MN payments. So say you set 10% - that means that whole amount of 1 of 10 your MN payments (on average) will be completely redirected to donation address. In other words you will "miss" 1 of 10 your MN payments (on average) in that case. This scheme was selected on purpose - to quickly give people some tech to be able to donate and avoid the need for a fork (updating majority of miners, modifying rpc and pools software) at the same time.
 
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ErrorId

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Another note on that, just to make things clear and avoid possible confusions: current implementation simply switch payee for <percentage> of your MN payments on average, it does NOT split your MN payments. So say you set 10% - that means that whole amount of 1 of 10 your MN payments (on average) will be completely redirected to donation address. In other words you will "miss" 1 of 10 your MN payments (on average) in that case. This scheme was selected on purpose - to quickly give people some tech to be able to donate and avoid the need for a fork (updating majority of miners, modifying rpc and pools software) at the same time.
Thank you for the clarification. Is something like I pointed out earlier feasible?
 

UdjinM6

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Thank you for the clarification. Is something like I pointed out earlier feasible?
1) Like I said before - granular control is possible but it require much deeper changes in wallet itself and in mining pool software + every major pool will have to update to understand these changes. Remember how MN enforcements went - lots off efforts to convince pools to update (they don't like to fix something in their software that is working already which is understandable) and lot's of forks because some software failed here and there. Let's see how popular this feature in its current simple implementation will be and then decide does it worth it or not.

2) DRK at $290 is less then 100x from now so why not? :D

3) "multiple wallet to setup one MN" setup... well, if when we hit (2) we might need to think of it, right now it's ok to have single wallet setup. However simpler solution would be to lower collateral amount down from 1K to smth more appropriate at these price levels - we still need a lot of MNs to be run and I'm not sure if there will be a lot at that cost per MN. But again, let's see how it goes and fix when it's really needed.
 

Dunedoo

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Bunnycoin had charity voting in the wallet. To cast a vote for the charity listed you'd send a small fee for one vote. The winning charity received the funds collected (I think 10% of mining).
 

Sapereaude

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So is this up and running on the current release or still in testing??
 

AjM

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Is main-net donation system online with 11.2.17 ?
How this should be configure to masternode.conf ?
What is dev.support donation address ?

Here is normal start-many line from masternode.conf, what i have to add to this line?
mn1 12.34.56.78:9999 XXX ZZZ 1
 

tungfa

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I still do not understand how the Dev support donations work ?!
I start it from the wallet of MN's ? need to tweet con file ? or how ...
we need a dummy guide (as always)
otherwise we will miss out on all the nobs (like me) to donate !
as of "no idea how"

i asked around but could not get a clear answer
 

alex-ru

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Will copy-past it here, from BTC (moocowmoo):


to the end of your masternode.conf line (right after the input index integer) add: destinationaddress:percentage

e.g.

<alias> <mnaddr> <mnprivkey> <txid> <vout> Xblahblahblahblah:10


to send, on average, one out of every 10 masternode block reward payments to Xblahblahblahblah

note: block reward payments are not split into two outputs.
payments are redirected to the donation address on a schedule defined by the percentage /on average/
 
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