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warrant canary ?!

tungfa

Well-known member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
This is the 2nd time i am coming across this 'Canary"

Should we be looking into this and adopt it on our pages (could be a good PR run)

A warrant canary is a posted document stating that an organization has not received any secret subpoenas during a specific period of time. If this document fails to be updated during the specified time then the user is to assume that the service has received such a subpoena and should stop using the service.

Warrant Canary Examples:
  1. https://proxy.sh/canary
  2. https://www.ivpn.net/resources/canary.txt
  3. https://www.vpnsecure.me/files/canary.txt
  4. https://www.bolehvpn.net/canary.html
  5. https://lokun.is/canary.txt
  6. https://www.ipredator.se/static/downloads/canary.txt
Related Warrant Canary Information
 
a very smart man just gave me a comment on this
and i can only agree
(edited):

I talked to our lawyers about doing one for xx and they advised against it. Here’s why. A warrant canary is supposed to give your customers that warm fuzzy feeling that your site is trustworthy. But, if you are not a trustworthy site, then even if you get an subpoena, you are going to pull the warrant canary statement. At that point, the warrant canary becomes just another lie. So basically, a warrant canary is worthless because only the good actors will follow it.
And a subpoena doesn’t mean your are guilty of anything, so if you do pull the warrant canary because you have receive a subpoena it will have a negative overall affect. It’s like guilty until proven innocent.
A false allegation by a troll to a federal power could trigger a subpoena at which point we would have to take the warrant canary down.
Once you take it down the twitter attack will erupt.
 
a very smart man just gave me a comment on this
and i can only agree
(edited):

I talked to our lawyers about doing one for xx and they advised against it. Here’s why. A warrant canary is supposed to give your customers that warm fuzzy feeling that your site is trustworthy. But, if you are not a trustworthy site, then even if you get an subpoena, you are going to pull the warrant canary statement. At that point, the warrant canary becomes just another lie. So basically, a warrant canary is worthless because only the good actors will follow it.
And a subpoena doesn’t mean your are guilty of anything, so if you do pull the warrant canary because you have receive a subpoena it will have a negative overall affect. It’s like guilty until proven innocent.
A false allegation by a troll to a federal power could trigger a subpoena at which point we would have to take the warrant canary down.
Once you take it down the twitter attack will erupt.

Hmm. Interesting perspective. I know Roger Ver put one on Bitcoin.com recently. https://forum.bitcoin.com/the-forum/bitcoin-com-now-has-a-canary-warrant-page-t759.html
 
i got some answers in another thread:

- You don't have to take it down if it is a regular subpoena. Then you just update the number. If it is some anti-democratic mouth gagging subpoena from the FISA Court or something similar, then you can remove it.

- This is interesting and scary at the same time.
Taken from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary
 
i got some answers in another thread:

- You don't have to take it down if it is a regular subpoena. Then you just update the number. If it is some anti-democratic mouth gagging subpoena from the FISA Court or something similar, then you can remove it.

- This is interesting and scary at the same time.
Taken from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary

Warrant canaries are clever and interesting, but I don't see them really being all that effective. The FISA Court can issue secret subpoenas, so I have no doubt that they are clever enough to order that warrant canaries be updated regularly on pain of fine/imprisonment. Remember, due process does not exist once the FISA Court becomes involved...I wouldn't put anything past them, and I'm sure they're smart enough to know about warrant canaries and to be able to handle them.
 
Warrant canaries are clever and interesting, but I don't see them really being all that effective. The FISA Court can issue secret subpoenas, so I have no doubt that they are clever enough to order that warrant canaries be updated regularly on pain of fine/imprisonment. Remember, due process does not exist once the FISA Court becomes involved...I wouldn't put anything past them, and I'm sure they're smart enough to know about warrant canaries and to be able to handle them.

I doubt that in a democratic state, governed by the rule of law, any citizen can be lawfully compelled to lie. Compelled speech can rarely uphold in court (at least here), and only in very specific cases (but never to sustain lies... I hope).

IMO warrant canaries are important and reassuring. Necessary, as it seem, in the case of DASH, even though it is an open sourced system (can be fully audited - no backdoors) many people "cannot read the code", so a warrant canary would be important for such people.
 
a very smart man just gave me a comment on this
and i can only agree
(edited):

I talked to our lawyers about doing one for xx and they advised against it. Here’s why. A warrant canary is supposed to give your customers that warm fuzzy feeling that your site is trustworthy. But, if you are not a trustworthy site, then even if you get an subpoena, you are going to pull the warrant canary statement. At that point, the warrant canary becomes just another lie. So basically, a warrant canary is worthless because only the good actors will follow it.
And a subpoena doesn’t mean your are guilty of anything, so if you do pull the warrant canary because you have receive a subpoena it will have a negative overall affect. It’s like guilty until proven innocent.
A false allegation by a troll to a federal power could trigger a subpoena at which point we would have to take the warrant canary down.
Once you take it down the twitter attack will erupt.
This. A thing with which I have experience.

Warrant canary is only useful to people who have no clue how guv works.

Microsoft is a great example. Now that their OSes are backdoored by consumer demand, Microsoft is the butler because people can't be asked to maintain their own machine, the butler has the keys to the estate. No warrant s needed. Just the threat of being leaned on, perpetually audited, more anti-trust stuff... The government has tons of unofficial leverage. If they want access to your computer, they just say "give us access or we lean on you." No warrant or subpoena (deuces tecum) required.

Many still seem to be laboring under the delusion that government actually obeys it's own rules...
 
This. A thing with which I have experience.

Warrant canary is only useful to people who have no clue how guv works.

Microsoft is a great example. Now that their OSes are backdoored by consumer demand, Microsoft is the butler because people can't be asked to maintain their own machine, the butler has the keys to the estate. No warrant s needed. Just the threat of being leaned on, perpetually audited, more anti-trust stuff... The government has tons of unofficial leverage. If they want access to your computer, they just say "give us access or we lean on you." No warrant or subpoena (deuces tecum) required.

Many still seem to be laboring under the delusion that government actually obeys it's own rules...

So, in this case. I guess Microsoft will not keep a warrant canary.

The point is, that company will never be lawfully forced to publish a false warrant canary. And if it does (under unlawful coercion) produce that "false claim" they might be "great" in the eyes of the corrupt force which demanded them to lie... but the moment the community learns about the false warrant canary, that company's reputation will be "very dead".

325px-GillrayBritannia.jpg

Its different situations:

One thing is if the company is coerced to put backdoors on their machines, and is forced to remain in silence about it. Ok. They will not update their canary.

Now it would be a very different situation if the company lies, accepting the unlawful coercion to update a false canary, even while having a judicial recourse available (I suppose the US Justice is "trustworthy enough" in such cases, because, at least here in Brazil - a banana republic - I am sure that anyone would be able to defend in court their right not to produce a false statement, a false warranty canary... I work directly with the Justice here, that's why I hope I can be sure of it)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I doubt that in a democratic state, governed by the rule of law, any citizen can be lawfully compelled to lie. Compelled speech can rarely uphold in court (at least here), and only in very specific cases (but never to sustain lies... I hope).

IMO warrant canaries are important and reassuring. Necessary, as it seem, in the case of DASH, even though it is an open sourced system (can be fully audited - no backdoors) many people "cannot read the code", so a warrant canary would be important for such people.

The US Government doesn't exactly always do everything lawfully =)

I'm pretty sure the government could compel a person to lie, on pain of imprisonment. They would call it "national security" and be done with it. Is it lawful? Of course not. But neither is the whole concept of the Patriot Act or FISA Court =)
 
The US Government doesn't exactly always do everything lawfully =)

I'm pretty sure the government could compel a person to lie, on pain of imprisonment. They would call it "national security" and be done with it. Is it lawful? Of course not. But neither is the whole concept of the Patriot Act or FISA Court =)

hum... that's really sad... :oops:

I would call it "the tyrant's security"
 
Look at what I have found at www.yalelawjournal.org/forum/warrant-canaries-and-disclosure-by-design (emphasis added)

"(...)

"Finally, warrant canaries raise the specter of a new legal issue: can the government compel a lie?80 If the government served a canary-publishing company with a secret surveillance order, could it then force the recipient to continue to publish what would have become a false—or zombie—canary? The issue of compelled lies is now live. A Twitter lawsuit against the government seeking the right to publish a canary in the first place, filed on October 7, 2014, is a preliminary step towards resolving the issue.81

"Mandating a canary should provoke strict scrutiny. If the government were to force an NSL recipient to publish a false canary, it would do so precisely to further the canary’s expressive purpose (and not in a way incidental to this purpose). Outside the commercial speech context, when the government forces true statements for their expressive purpose, strict scrutiny review applies.82 Hence a fortiori, forced lies should trigger the strict scrutiny test of narrow tailoring to a compelling government interest.

"Therefore, if technology companies fail in their ongoing challenges to convince courts that NSL gag orders are classic prior restraints, they could turn instead to defending their rights to use canaries. Requiring false canaries probably would trigger strict scrutiny, while NSL gags alone might not. Hence, canaries could establish limits to otherwise permissible gags.

"Even if they faced the same level of scrutiny, First Amendment challenges to compelled lies might be stronger than challenges to compelled silence. The optical differences between forced action and inaction may inspire in judges additional antipathy for the former, potentially leading them to engage in a more searching examination of the interests that the government claims are compelling.83

"The government may also find it difficult to prove that compelled publication of a false canary is narrowly tailored. In prior negotiations, it has permitted some companies to report the number of surveillance orders they receive in bands of 250.84 Why not allow canary-publishing recipients to do the same? In other words, forcing recipients to issue zombie canaries could fail a narrow tailoring test because there is a less restrictive alternative that the government already employs.85 To be sure, the government might respond that the bulk transparency reporting guidelines do not achieve the government’s compelling interest when those reports would reveal a jump from zero to one surveillance orders. Even so, the narrow tailoring of false canaries would be disputable in ways that NSL gags are not.

"A finding that NSL gags are classic prior restraints would render the false canary issue moot. If courts find the gags to be unconstitutional prior restraints, the government would face a larger constitutional hurdle to impose the gag in the first place than to compel a lie to maintain its efficacy after the fact. If instead the government successfully argues that NSL gags are constitutional prior restraints, then compelled false canaries should likewise be permissible. The gags would have survived the “most serious and the least tolerable” presumption against their legality.86 False canaries might only raise a lesser challenge. Further, courts sufficiently sympathetic to the NSLs to declare them constitutional prior restraints would then be less likely to restrain them based on a novel compelled lies claim.

"(...)


"This Part details existing and hypothetical examples to elucidate the concept of disclosure by design. Whereas transparency reports challenge government claims about who wants to speak, and canaries challenge government claims about who already isspeaking, with disclosure by design, speakers establish their intent today about what they will say in the future. To create an effective NSL gag, the government would have to prohibit a systems design ex ante.

"Disclosure by design challenges the efficacy of the government’s current NSL gags and, additionally, government arguments that the gags prohibit merely information the government itself has provided. From a policy perspective, disclosure by design might not only reflect a larger class of would-be-speakers than the government has claimed are suppressed by NSL gags, but could also serve to expand that class.

"(...)

"Disclosure by design is an emergent phenomenon. Journalists and activists have already proposed partially automated canary services that would send regular prompts to post a manual message, “No secret orders yet.”88 Others have suggested a “warrant canary metatag” built into web browsers.89 Tamper-evident intrusion detection systems might serve a similar function.

"(...)

"Conclusion
"This Essay suggests that a critical subject for future debate regarding the government’s NSL gag authority will be extrajudicial solutions that telecommunications providers can adopt unilaterally. The Essay has shown that NSL recipients already are using transparency reports and warrant canaries to reframe the government’s claims about its NSL gag authority. Moreover, and critically, in the long-term the Essay predicts that communications service providers are likely to adopt privacy-protective design capable of notifying users when their data suffer a security breach. It may be only a matter of time before disclosure by design undermines the efficacy of the government’s NSL authority and renders obsolete the legal challenges to NSL gags that are currently underway in the courts."
 
I am making an "experiment" with warrant canaries on DASHpag.com (look by the bottom right of the page), just to see how it works (actually we don't have something similar in Brazil, so it is indeed an experiment).

It will demand monthly updates. That's one thing with warrant canaries: once you start it you cannot "safely" stop it.
 
that company will never be lawfully forced to publish a false warrant canary.

They could be coerced in exactly the same way they can be coerced to invade your back-doored Windows 10 machine. Pissing on the 4th Amendment is already SOP, and it's a far more established concept than a warrant canary...

There is no legal premise for the Warrant Canary. One could easily post a false one, being an intentional honeypot, plain old lying. They could be funneling data without the government even asking for it, and have a warrant canary. It's presence or non-presence means nothing, there is no consequence for it's presence or non-presence, and no consequence for lying about it... It's presence tells you everything that it's absence tells you; nothing at all.
 
The US Government doesn't exactly always do everything lawfully =)

I'm pretty sure the government could compel a person to lie, on pain of imprisonment. They would call it "national security" and be done with it. Is it lawful? Of course not. But neither is the whole concept of the Patriot Act or FISA Court =)
It's already a crime to advise the public that you're being asked to provide records during a criminal proceeding. There are some exceptions, but you can be sure your kids will go missing if you do.

Advising the public by putting up a flag, or pulling down a flag; either way is still advising.

Government has made it a crime to expose their crimes. You really think they wouldn't?
 
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