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Looks like MasterNodes and Miners are taking a stand...

camosoul

Well-known member
Those who have upgraded to 0.13.0.0 are all that will.

Miners are refusing to upgrade.

MasterNodes are refusing to upgrade.

Need a way to force the matter or this is where DASH ends; no more upgrades.

So much for "governance."

If you can't even get the network to upgrade to new versions of the software...

MNs haven't moved for over 24 hours.

Miners haven't budged for over a week...
 
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Those who have upgraded to 0.13.0.0 are all that will.

Miners are refusing to upgrade.

MasterNodes are refusing to upgrade.

Need a way to force the matter or this is where DASH ends; no more upgrades.

So much for "governance."

If you can't even get the network to upgrade to new versions of the software...

MNs haven't moved for over 24 hours.

Miners haven't budged for over a week...

Masternodes support seem to increase with approx 1% a day, and currently 69% of the masternodes upgraded to v0.13.
Link : https://www.dashninja.pl/masternodes.html

Since we have a majority of them on v0.13, we could theorically force those masternodes that have not updated yet out of payment by activating a spork.
However as i understand it to activate that spork, we will first need to have DIP003 activation (which depends on 80% of mined blocks signaling v0.13 readyness).

Update : see also https://github.com/dashpay/dash/pull/2684 (it seems to confirm that masternodes are not the ones holding back this update anymore with their current percentage of support)

Miners support is a bit disappointing so far and gets complicated as it depends on which miners / miningpools (upgraded versus not upgraded) find the blocks, so the whole v0.13 adoption graph fluctuates like crazy when you look at it. The highest has been 50% and its currently at 41%.
Link : http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html (v13 Adoption)

It was always my personal opinion that this update would take several months (which could have been expressed a little better by DCG, when they announced this v0.13 upgrade on mainnet).
So in my opinion with regards to timeframe :

Several months to have miners signal with their mined blocks a readyness to v0.13 (this "several months" started 14th of january 2019 by the way and to complicate things : miners only really started to show update progress 10 days after release on mainnet)

1 week to lock-in DIP003
1 week to activate DIP003

A few days to activate sporks like 15 (which bring deterministic masternodes and kicks older protocols from the network) and 16 (Automatic InstantSend).
 
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Latest information with regards to miners support (still fluctuates a lot) :

QmLig7T.jpg
 
Update : see also https://github.com/dashpay/dash/pull/2684 (it seems to confirm that masternodes are not the ones holding back this update anymore with their current percentage of support)

Miners support is a bit disappointing so far and gets complicated as it depends on which miners / miningpools (upgraded versus not upgraded) find the blocks, so the whole v0.13 adoption graph fluctuates like crazy when you look at it. The highest has been 50% and its currently at 41%.
Link : http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html (v13 Adoption)

A little clarification - as it stands currently, masternodes _would be_ the ones holding up DIP3 activation if there were 80% (or even 100%) miner support. Some of the miner support confusion is related to them only being able to signal for DIP3 when paying out to an upgraded masternode. So even if 100% of miners were upgraded, the average signaling percentage would not exceed the percent of upgraded masternodes (currently around 70%).

The PR referenced above will allow upgraded miners to signal in every block regardless of the masternode version being paid. Once that is active, we will only have to wait for 80% miner support.
 
Node40 have been a major hold up, I have only been able to upgrade today because of them.
 
This only puts more emphasis in the fact that there needs to be a mechanism to force the matter. As well-meaning as sporks are, the absolute nature of hard forks provides clarity, even if it is barbaric and clumsy.

If miners just don't care, whatcha gonna do?

MasterNodes aren't very masterful if they can't enforcement versioning somehow... 80% is too much. Simple majority presence should allow an enforcible supremacy... It might be a bit more disruptive, but it'd get sh!t done.

I, also, expected this update to take longer, but this is ridiculous...

I suggest that a more heavy-handed authority needs to be exerted by MasterNodes. Whip 'em into compliance by invalidating their blocks. Version has to match the MN version majority or punted. Kinda like a PoSe score for miners, except it's pure Boolean... The miners need to lose some power. As @thephez pointed out, only 70% of MNs are up to date. 40% would have been enough... Well more than needed to force the matter. And it would encourage the remaining MNs to get their butts in gear, too.

I'm not sure this warrants a 0.13.0.1, but it should be considered in the future... Could be stuck here forever, and that budget isn't getting any larger...
 
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This only puts more emphasis in the fact that there needs to be a mechanism to force the matter. As well-meaning as sporks are, the absolute nature of hard forks provides clarity, even if it is barbaric and clumsy.

If miners just don't care, whatcha gonna do?

MasterNodes aren't very masterful if they can't enforcement versioning somehow... 80% is too much. Simple majority presence should allow an enforcible supremacy... It might be a bit more disruptive, but it'd get sh!t done.

I, also, expected this update to take longer, but this is ridiculous...

Next update will be interesting (v0.13.1) as it seems to be an update more intended for miners-only, so they can signal DIP3 regardles of the readiness of the corresponding masternode.
How fast will miners / mining pools implement this small update ? (which is minor in size / scale but important in progressing our overall v0.13 adoption)

Link : https://github.com/dashpay/dash/pull/2689/commits/6595dcb12194ef7fe7da5d24b5456d29245067c0

With masternodes we have a reachability problem, where we cant reach enough masternodes to vote on budget proposals (only a small fraction actively participates in our governance system).
With miners we have a reachability problem, where we cant reach miners effectively to have them update their software in a timely manner.
Both problems dont seem to have simple solutions.
 
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Next update will be interesting (v0.13.1) as it seems to be an update more intended for miners-only, so they can signal DIP3 regardles of the readiness of the corresponding masternode.
How fast will miners / mining pools implement this small update ? (which is minor in size / scale but important in progressing our overall v0.13 adoption)

Link : https://github.com/dashpay/dash/pull/2689/commits/6595dcb12194ef7fe7da5d24b5456d29245067c0

With masternodes we have a reachability problem, where we cant reach enough masternodes to vote on budget proposals (only a small fraction actively participates in our governance system).
For the budget, it less of a reach-ability problem, and more of a "no reason to give a damn" problem. The budget is too narcissistic and defective. It fails to consider that people vote with their feet by simply not participating in DASH anymore, or just ignoring all the silliness that's never based on logic or reason. I nearly forgot the budget system exists. It's a joke. This is why no one participates. It's a self-screening system that assures anyone with a brain simply walks away.
With miners we have a reachability problem, where we cant reach miners effectively to have them update their software in a timely manner.
Miners have never cared, which is why crude systems like hard forks and hash wars work for them; it's all they can comprehend, it's all they care about.

Since MasterNodes pay more attention, and they're called MasterNodes because they're supposed to be the master of something; they needed to be given authority. Pay attention, get with the program, or lose out. You're damn right people will complain; good! Flog them until they quit, or stop being lazy and entitled. It inspire a race to update. You'll get in a fast loop for payments the sooner you do it, as all the lazy bums are kicked offline.

As for miners, you simply won't get paid if you refuse to upgrade. Burning a bunch of electricity, winning a block, and having it rejected would certainly wake the sh!ts up and encourage an upgrade...
Both problems dont seem to have simple solutions.
I have an idea...

Absolute supremacy. You do, indeed, have the ability to reach more MNs than Miners. Look at the current percentage. MasterNodes == majority of a given protocol/version combo nullifies all blocks that don't match that protocol/version number.

Sporks are still used to enable given features and changes.

If your blocks are being punted, this motivates you to upgrade. If your MN PoSe Score is dirt, and you don't get paid anymore, this motivates you to upgrade. This is why I said voting needs to be mandatory. You have to at least pay enough attention to say that you abstain. Allowing both MNs and Miners to make money while paying no attention at all, and being completely uninformed... Well, that's exactly what you get. No one is even aware this is happening. No reason to care. You WILL vote on at least 5 proposals every cycle, even if it's to say that you abstain, or you don't get paid. I told you this would happen. Here we are.

Patiently waiting for people to do X, when they not only lack any incentive to do so, but also lack any incentive to give damn what happens to DASH... That's not a model you can depend on.

Too much Snowflake, not enough Manhood. You gotta grow a pair. If even DASH doesn't care about DASH, why should anyone else? You guys gotta grow a pair...


MNs are paying attention a lot more than miners. Given the state of goofy versions/protocols on the network, supremacy can be dictated by less than 50%. This may change a bit as deterministic enables, etc. encourage less sloppy behavior. Instead of 51% hashpower determining top block, MNs can.

Miners plug in and forget. Punt their blocks and they'll be a lot ore than reachable... They'll be all over the forum whining and complaining how it's not fair to stop paying them even though they are the ones not living up to Proof of Service. See what I did there? Proof of Service needs to be applied to Miners. MNs can do it. Get on the right version/protocol, or kiss your payouts and ROI goodbye.

Pay attention and do your job properly, or you don't get paid. Incentivized. MasterNodes aren't very Master-y if they cede this to the Miners. It the Miners are still the boss, MasterNodes aren't MasterNodes; they're BitchBoyNodes.

You've got handle the savages with a heavy hand. They don't respond to timid requests. DASH has had a chronic problem of a severe lack of Testicular Fortitude... This project has been overwhelmed by politically correct soy/cuckery, and there's no toxic masculinity at all...
 
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I suspect DCG reason for not getting tougher on miners, is that it could increase the risk of our network accidentally forking.
I do like the idea of having some sort of Proof of Service for miners, as long as that does not give an increased risk to our network.
 
I suspect DCG reason for not getting tougher on miners, is that it could increase the risk of our network accidentally forking.
I do like the idea of having some sort of Proof of Service for miners, as long as that does not give an increased risk to our network.
Risk to the network? Never upgrading seems like a risk...
 
Risk to the network? Never upgrading seems like a risk...

Well, we never had the situation that our miners never upgraded and i'm not convinced we are in that situation now.
Miners / miningpools (not all of them but some) are just notoriously slow at upgrading most of the time.
 
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Well, we never had the situation that our miners never upgraded and i'm not convinced we are in that situation now.
Well, ya got it now... Maybe you're not convinced of it, but the graph isn't lying...
Miners / miningpools (not all of them but some) are just notoriously slow at upgrading most of the time.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record; you're only confirming that this is a well known problem, and some mechanism to give them a kick in the pants is needed...
 
I saw that spike, too. It's drawing back down tho... Seems to be anomalous.

Currently in a nosedive at 45%...

Just a lucky series of blocks from miners who had upgraded, going back to the usual...
 
I saw that spike, too. It's drawing back down tho... Seems to be anomalous.

Currently in a nosedive at 45%...

Just a lucky series of blocks from miners who had upgraded, going back to the usual...

Lets see if v0.13.1 (miners-only update) once officially announced, will bring more stability to that chart.....
Since upgraded miners can then signal readyness for v0.13 with each block, regardless if a masternode has upgraded or not.
The current 26% of the masternodes not yet upgraded, could be interfering with that signaling right now (at least thats the impression i get).
 
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Just wanted to point out:
  • 13.0 has been out for less than 4 weeks
  • DIP activation signaling is already higher than 12.3 was 6 weeks in
  • It took over 2 months for 12.3 to be fully activated
  • 14.0 progress is continuing without interruption so there is not a reason from the development side to force full 13.0 activation
I certainly don't want things to drag on like they did with 12.3, but so far the weekly signalling % has been climbing on a relatively constant slope. It seems reasonable that upgrades would happen at different rates particularly with parties that have a lot at stake (i.e. income) like miners.

Also, this is par for the course in a decentralized system - there isn't a dictator to enforce compliance. Disrupting established consensus rules to speed up a software update seems like a dangerous approach because it shifts the balance of power. Centralization "solves" these problems by removing influence over consensus from stakeholders (masternodes, miners, etc.) and concentrating it. At the end of the day, every miner or masternode has just as much of a right to upgrade or not upgrade as every other one. Which is the beauty and frustration of decentralization.
 
You're making excuses. DASH has a non-centralized way to handle this but fails to do so.

It shouldn't take 6 weeks. It shouldn't take 4 weeks. It shouldn't take 2 weeks.

Yes, it shifts the balance of power; to the new place where it belongs; MasterNodes.

Again, you're pushing adoption away. Vendors don't want a network that goes wonky for weeks or months at a time during upgrades. They want it to happen quickly. It inspires the opposite of confidence when you can't get Miners and MNs to even pay attention to their own network. It's like the influence this has on the key people who might use DASH is not even a consideration...

What if 7-eleven's payment system went down for 2 months, and the provider didn't care?

They'd have something else before the end of day one, it would never last 2 months.

When they watch it happen, they don't get on board in the first place.

The continuing observation from vendors about DASH is "They just plain don't get it. They don't listen and they don't care."

Screenshot_2019-02-08_20-26-47.png
 
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