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Bitcoin Sidechains - Is Dash living on borrowed time ?

T

toknormal

Guest
Sidechains ! :)

Why can bitcoin not just implement masternodes in a sidechain ? Isn't Dash living on borrowed time ? Eventually, bitcoin will solve "instant payments" and every other conceivable archetype with recourse to sidechains/lightning network. Then you'd have feature-4 dealt with. You'd also have a load of technological gains.

This is a good question and one which the Dash community must be able to answer categorically.

Ostensibly, gold coins ("precious metal cash") are like side-chains to the gold supply in the sense that they are highly processed versions of the gold supply. Dollar bills and coins are like "side chains" to the electronic banks deposits in the sense that we can go to the cash terminal and "convert" some of our balance to a "notes and coins" side chain.

I say "ostensibly" because this is how it appears - both technologically and intuitively. But if we apply systems analysis to each case, a very different conclusion emerges with regards to how the archetype should be implemented as a synthetic asset.

First of all, gold coins are of course an on-chain phenomenon since they are no less gold metal than their "nugget" antecedents. Meanwhile, notes and coins are actually further up the food chain than bank deposits since notes are central bank money whereas bank deposits constitute derivative money.



A bitcoin sidechain works by locking up and "baking" a deposited bitcoin for a sufficient amount of time that a secondary network can cryptographically rely on it to back a different type of synthesised archetypal asset. So this would be like, say "locking up" your notes and coins in a bank deposit to gain an electronic version of their value that you can transmit across large distances. Except - it's the wrong way around. We are moving from cash to a derivative. And so it is with sidechains which is why they can never support feature 2 of the cash archetype.

By way of recourse to archetypal analysis therefore, we can determine that side chains potentially support the following monetary archetypes faithfully:
  • bank deposits (derived from their cash antecedents)
  • various synthetic securities
  • commercially backed utility tokens
  • non-dollar national currencies under the Bretton Woods system
But not...
  • cash
Or...
  • any synthetic commodity
The cash archetype is a slippery customer because it needs to support all 3 core monetary properties at once - store of value, means of exchange and unit of account (divisibility). Once again, sidechains turn out to be a low fidelity implementation because although they can potentially support a decoupled protocol, the fact that it's off-chain means that the requirement of holding the primary asset in its native form isn't satisfied.

This may not seem all that important right now, but as cryptographic assets start to get whittled down to the core survivors it will be hugely important since the ability to port a divisible unit of the base asset and use in trade (as opposed to backing a monetary derivative) will categorically define the difference between a synthetic version of the cash archetype and a security (which is no different from what we have already had for centuries and does not need a blockchain).

An economic problem with sidechains

Lets look at sidechains from a completely different angle - macro economics. Maybe the designers thought about this already and gave them a politically motivated design priority and maybe they just didn't think about it at all. But one of the promoted technological "strengths" of sidechains (pegging) also has a crippling impact on bitcoin in economic terms.

If every other synthetic monetary asset is pegged to bitcoin, then their price cannot float freely in markets to reflect demand - only their liquidity (or "supply"). What this means is that deflationary/inflationary pressures are always transmitted to asset sectors in which they didn't originate.

For example, if the price of diamonds was always pegged to the price of gold, then a gold shortage would always result in an inflation of the diamond price - even if the market dynamics for diamonds was stable. "Mackerel coin" liquidity would likeways upset golf course attendances by transmitting deflation to "Golf Course Coin" sidechain by way of Bitcoin in the event of a fishing surplus and no market could be firewalled off from any other as thay are today in our multiple - currency world economy. (Venezuela is experiencing hyper inflation, but this is not immediatelly transmitted to the $USD or £GBP).

Sidechains and Monetary Properties

Finally, lets look at what sidechains do to the core, age-old recognised properties of money. In particular:
  • fungibility
  • divisability
  • durability
  • unit of account
First of all, by changing the trading characteristics of large parts of the coin supply, fungibility is clearly thrown out of the window. "Morphing" a bitcoin into a "Mackerel Coin" would be like converting a gold coin to a slice of cheese potentially - albeit a valuable piece of cheese. Clearly the cheese is not "fungible" by definition since it is distinguishable from the gold.

Again - you can't have it both ways. Either "Mackerel Coin" is backed by bitcoin (in which case it's a security, not cash) or it has independent characteristics which should be independently valued in markets (in which case it can't be a sidechain).

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https://theblog.adobe.com/prototyping-difference-low-fidelity-high-fidelity-prototypes-use/

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Why can bitcoin not just implement masternodes in a sidechain ? Isn't Dash living on borrowed time ? Eventually, bitcoin will solve "instant payments" and every other conceivable archetype with recourse to sidechains/lightning network. Then you'd have feature-4 dealt with. You'd also have a load of technological gains.

Again - you can't have it both ways. Either "Mackerel Coin" is backed by bitcoin (in which case it's a security, not cash) or it has independent characteristics which should be independently valued in markets (in which case it can't be a sidechain).
Aside from "sidechain MasterNodes" being an excellent example of "That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!"

I think it's a distinction without a difference. Not because your observation is inaccurate, but that nobody will bother with understanding the distinction or the difference.

It's like selling a door lock to someone who doesn't understand the concept of theft. It won't matter until they get burned, they still won't understand, they'll just be mad as hell.

No one understands the problem(s), so they see no need for the solution(s).

They'll just squat in their hypecoin of choice until it gets the features DASH has created and chronically failed to capitalize upon.

Show a bar of gold, a shiny nickel, a duff, and 5 GBP note to a cat. Which one will it choose... It's going to stick it's leg way up in the air and lick its own butthole, then wander away.

DASH cried wolf too many times. Killer feature set, did nothing with it. Nobody takes DASH seriously anymore. Find someone in the cryptosphere that doesn't giggle when you mention DASH...

I don't enjoy saying it, but DASH has made such a fool of itself that it really doesn't matter anymore. DASH could cure cancer, and the world would wait for someone else to copy it and they'd get the cure from that person.

Since IX was invented, DASH had one thing it needed to do; get a universal retailer on board. A grocery store. A gas station. Something pretty much everyone uses. We're going on half a decade of not even trying, and backstabbing anyone who does...

DASH could have closed the loop on a skeleton system 4 years ago, and fleshed out the fluff as it went.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... Doesn't really matter anymore. Nothing capable of standing on it's own merit was produced, and the welfare budget is defunct. DASH has a "buffer" to run on for a few months. People willing to work for free. But still, no one addressing the elephant in the room.

You're 100% right. So what?
 
You're 100% right. So what?

Although I sympathise with some of your perspective, I don't quite share the (apparent) sentiment of hopeless despair.

The reason I've made a few posts about "Archetypes" over the last few days is because they give as a preview into how things may be likely to play out organically down the line. As you say, the cat isn't thinking about "monetary archetypes" when faced with some apparently arbitrary choices, but all the same thousands of cats over a longer time period will display some aggregate behaviour that makes better than sub-optimal choices.

Also, "Universal retailers" are interested in "universal customer bases". Charge cards got accepted and grew for 2 reasons:
  1. by paying a tiny percentage transaction fee, the merchant gained access to a market of millions of customers
  2. the card came preloaded with "free money" (at least in the case of credit cards)
Despite that, it took Diners 15 years to get 1.5 million card holders, not necessarily all of whom were active.

Dash cannot compete on those terms - no matter how many doors anyone goes banging on. Dash is not "giving away free money", it's defining a new asset. The case for adoption must be based on economics, not marketing and even in that regard I believe it is in fact starting to land a few larger retailers, at least as far as the "stickers in windows" stage goes.

Look...the message appears not to be falling on deaf ears ! :D;)
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Hopeless despair comes not from the circumstance, but that those who have taken the power to do something about it exclusively to themselves, aren't doing a damned thing...

I've been in way worse positions in my many years. This doesn't panic me or cause despair. I'll be just fine. But DASH... They don't seem to have any idea what to do, or even that there is something they should do...
 
Although I sympathise with some of your perspective, I don't quite share the (apparent) sentiment of hopeless despair.

The reason I've made a few posts about "Archetypes" over the last few days is because they give as a preview into how things may be likely to play out organically down the line. As you say, the cat isn't thinking about "monetary archetypes" when faced with some apparently arbitrary choices, but all the same thousands of cats over a longer time period will display some aggregate behaviour that makes better than sub-optimal choices.

Also, "Universal retailers" are interested in "universal customer bases". Charge cards got accepted and grew for 2 reasons:
  1. by paying a tiny percentage transaction fee, the merchant gained access to a market of millions of customers
  2. the card came preloaded with "free money" (at least in the case of credit cards)
Despite that, it took Diners 15 years to get 1.5 million card holders, not necessarily all of whom were active.

Dash cannot compete on those terms - no matter how many doors anyone goes banging on. Dash is not "giving away free money", it's defining a new asset. The case for adoption must be based on economics, not marketing and even in that regard I believe it is in fact starting to land a few larger retailers, at least as far as the "stickers in windows" stage goes.
I can screenshot them all in green, too...

I think your point is half-right.

Swiping a card doesn't "hurt." Which is why Debit Card resulted in even more adoption than Credit Cards. People spend more when they don't "feel" it, then wonder where it all went at the end of the month...

I see that same focus. Focusing on the feeling of "easy."

Being your own bank is not easy. Many of us chose the extra effort because we value our independence and freedom more than convenience. This is the market of crypto. The smelly, neckbeard Libertarians are right.

There will always be people so stupid they're a danger to themselves and others. There is no such thing as reaching down to these people, your arm isn't long enough.

The people in the middle still see fiat as "real" money. They always want to know how they can get "real money" from the payment of DASH that a customer might pay to them. Providing that is the first step. Some will never do anything more than that. Others will learn more, and maybe shut off the auto-fiat-conversion now and then to have a little pocket DASH. DASH has more utility that some will be willing to make the effort to use, and some will not. Wasting time trying to make a system that can "reach everyone" is pointless.

You can never reach everyone. Refusing to service the people you can already reach ("it's not ready yet") is a sad excuse for the wasted time of trying to reach the unreachable...

DO SOMETHING ALREADY!! IT'S BEEN 4 YEARS! IT'S NO LONGER A LACK OF CARROT. YOU NOW HAVE A VERY BIG STICK ABOUT TO HIT YOU.

DASH no longer has the luxury of it's endless consequence-free welfare budget. I has to establish something of actual value and merit that can stand alone. It needed to be done and in place already... But...

It's pointless to beat the dead-horse of meritocracy in an audience of communists...
 
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That was a joke. They happened to be tanking when I made the post ;)
I'm aware that things can go up as well as down.

So the jist is - if Dash had made InstantSend the default network setting 4 years ago then we would be top 5 by now ?
 
That was a joke. They happened to be tanking when I made the post ;)
I'm aware that things can go up as well as down.

So the jist is - if Dash had made InstantSend the default network setting 4 years ago then we would be top 5 by now ?
Top 5? What other 4 would still exist?

Of course it was a gag. But, I screen capped a trend that's still in play, and not a gag at all...
 
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