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Visa Declaring 'War on Cash' in UK

The irony that visa is profiting from cryptocurrency debit cards...

Yes, but I wonder what their actual view on this is.... are the credit card companies happy for this to grow..? Or are they ultimately against crypto because the banks are not in control of the emission/supply of crypto currency?

One thing that I am also unsure of, (and hence reluctant to use crypto debit/credit cards to any great extent) are the KYC/AML requirements which presumably make all transactions traceable and therefore retrospectively taxable?

Any thoughts on this please?
 
I don't know but it seems somewhat bizarre that the people who are using crypto are so desperate to spend that they would give up one of the core reasons for using it in the first place i.e. to cut out the middle man.

Let's see, first I buy crypto through an exchange.. AML / KYC.
(or buy in-person and pay a premium)

Then I apply for prepaid debit card.. AML / KYC.

When I spend, four different people get a cut of my hard earned money; the issuing bank (with lousy fiat exchange rates), the card issuer, the card platform (e.g. tenx) and then visa.

All these people will dictate to me when and how I can spend my crypto.. and they will charge me for the privilege. I will be charged loading fees, withdrawal fees, ATM fees, monthly fees etc. And the retailer will raise his prices to compensate for the percentage they must pay.for accepting plastic.

What happened to permissionless payments and cutting out the middle man? Why is anyone using crypto?
 
"which will see them offered lump sums worth thousands of pounds".

Let's spend each month unused funds between merchants so that they'd accept Dash.
 
What happened to permissionless payments and cutting out the middle man? Why is anyone using crypto?
With 99.999% of goods and services denominated in fiat, the issues you present are bound to come about, right?

But, I take comfort that "money" has a multifaceted definition. Sure, "medium of exchange" remains the province of fiat. But, "store of value"? Even considering the uncertainty facing crypto these next several weeks, I'll stick with it because, fundamentally, it's truth, justice and the (not so) American Way.
 
The effort put into the trusted sidechain concept in a effort to enable real-world use should have lit a fire under the "fix IX" perspective.

But, it didn't.

Because the cryptotard "no clue what's going on" attitude is prevalent in DASH as well.

Other coins took advantage.

VISA is, too.

Why are you surprised?
 
The effort put into the trusted sidechain concept in a effort to enable real-world use should have lit a fire under the "fix IX" perspective.

But, it didn't.

Because the cryptotard "no clue what's going on" attitude is prevalent in DASH as well.

Other coins took advantage.

VISA is, too.

Why are you surprised?

What "fix IX" perspective? I've seen you mention it a few times but haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere and it's working just fine here.

OT, Visa is resorting to bribery to increase it's market? Good stuff, that means they'll have less to spend on competing with more efficient decentralised networks later on ;)

Fwiw, this is the kind of tech they're already facing:
http://www.banklesstimes.com/2017/07/13/festy-wristband-lets-users-pay-with-dash/
Visa only has one network to work on and only a few ways to interact with it, that has several including Visas own network and that's just the beginning. Paper money might well be on the way out but cards wont be far behind it and then it's anyones game.
 
Good points, alot to think about.

If VISA can retrofit before DASH can get to the point of sale does that mean it's game over? I think not...
 
Good points, alot to think about.

If VISA can retrofit before DASH can get to the point of sale does that mean it's game over? I think not...

Hopefully they'll try something along those lines too, chances are the point of sale will go the way of PCs though, mostly replaced by smartphones and tablet devices. The entire wallet is fast becoming as unnecessary as the pocket watch, digital ID systems replacing the driving licence, ID cards, etc. is about the only thing left and that's not far off either.

EDIT: That brings it down to a race for efficiency, imho centralised networks have little chance of beating decentralised networks in that battle and DAOs can absolutely annihilate corporate models for cost-effectiveness.
 
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The irony that visa is profiting from cryptocurrency debit cards...
In reality they don't see/care if you load your prepaid card with crypto. The steps are as follows:

1. You load your card with crypto.
2. The seller of your card (Shake, Bitwalet and the others) gets your crypto and pays in fiat to the real issuer of the card (intermediary that has a relation with Visa and then sells a white label service to sellers, I know Shake and Bitwala use the same one in Gibraltar, I don't think there are many willing to work with crypto companies). To do so they sell the coins you send.
3. The real issuer pays Visa in fiat.

The real issuer is the one that sets the AML/KYC requirements because they need to take care of their relation with Visa. The seller just forwards everything you send.

For us these crypto debit cards seem like something important, but they are few and the total volume is nothing. Prepaid cards are sold in many countries since long ago and I'd bet that the crypto loaded ones are just a tiny fraction of an already small niche in the credit card biz.
 
I don't know but it seems somewhat bizarre that the people who are using crypto are so desperate to spend that they would give up one of the core reasons for using it in the first place i.e. to cut out the middle man.

Let's see, first I buy crypto through an exchange.. AML / KYC.
(or buy in-person and pay a premium)

Then I apply for prepaid debit card.. AML / KYC.

When I spend, four different people get a cut of my hard earned money; the issuing bank (with lousy fiat exchange rates), the card issuer, the card platform (e.g. tenx) and then visa.

All these people will dictate to me when and how I can spend my crypto.. and they will charge me for the privilege. I will be charged loading fees, withdrawal fees, ATM fees, monthly fees etc. And the retailer will raise his prices to compensate for the percentage they must pay.for accepting plastic.

What happened to permissionless payments and cutting out the middle man? Why is anyone using crypto?

I think the problem is chicken and egg. The plan of attack from core seems to be to on board businesses and give outlets to users. The easiest way to do that is to ease them into crypto through well known avenues or else without their knowledge (Visa/MC, etc...) Exchanges that switch it to fiat ASAP so as to minimize risk, etc... So yes, there are a lot of middle men. And no doubt they will hope to carve out a permanent place for themselves. But hopefully they will have to be flexible and find other ways to make themselves useful when Dash streamlines the payment industry and people no longer need middle men. Other opportunities will include:

dispute resolution
insurance
consultancy
Accounting/Tax
etc...

So there will always be other jobs needing fulfillment. Just because we have to use existing infrastructure that by all means we want to get rid of in the world NOW, doesn't mean their demise isn't imminent. Look at the department store, Amazon is killing them single handedly. Sure, trying on clothes and buying food may be around a lot longer, but most other brick and mortar stores are feeling the pinch. They have to adapt. Fry's makes going to their electronics store an experience for the whole family. It's almost like going to Disneyland, but Radio shack is almost obsolete around my parts. There are virtually no big box stores around here for TV/Stereos and Home Depot has all the appliances next to lumber. I see no real appliance stores except maybe a handful in all of Los Angeles if you don't count Lowes and Home Depot. I guess what I'm saying is that the world changes and nothing can stop it. At first we use what is existing until what is new establishes itself. I have no doubt Dash will establish itself.
 
I think the problem is chicken and egg. The plan of attack from core seems to be to on board businesses and give outlets to users. The easiest way to do that is to ease them into crypto through well known avenues or else without their knowledge (Visa/MC, etc...) Exchanges that switch it to fiat ASAP so as to minimize risk, etc... So yes, there are a lot of middle men. And no doubt they will hope to carve out a permanent place for themselves. But hopefully they will have to be flexible and find other ways to make themselves useful when Dash streamlines the payment industry and people no longer need middle men. Other opportunities will include:

dispute resolution
insurance
consultancy
Accounting/Tax
etc...

So there will always be other jobs needing fulfillment. Just because we have to use existing infrastructure that by all means we want to get rid of in the world NOW, doesn't mean their demise isn't imminent. Look at the department store, Amazon is killing them single handedly. Sure, trying on clothes and buying food may be around a lot longer, but most other brick and mortar stores are feeling the pinch. They have to adapt. Fry's makes going to their electronics store an experience for the whole family. It's almost like going to Disneyland, but Radio shack is almost obsolete around my parts. There are virtually no big box stores around here for TV/Stereos and Home Depot has all the appliances next to lumber. I see no real appliance stores except maybe a handful in all of Los Angeles if you don't count Lowes and Home Depot. I guess what I'm saying is that the world changes and nothing can stop it. At first we use what is existing until what is new establishes itself. I have no doubt Dash will establish itself.

It might be the existing infrastructure is "good enough". But yeah, I hope you're right.
 
I think not...
VISA can buy laws and propaganda.

DASH can't.

Look at everything else the UK has been convinced to inflict upon itself...

Simply make a law banning all non-state-approved cryptocurrencies. VISA being made the new, global Federal Reserve...

Coercion
 
VISA can buy laws and propaganda.

DASH can't.

Look at everything else the UK has been convinced to inflict upon itself...

Simply make a law banning all non-state-approved cryptocurrencies. VISA being made the new, global Federal Reserve...

Coercion

Dash currently has a 1 million dollar a month budget to spend and nobody even knows we exist. When Evolution comes out, and we're the only ones solving governance, scalability... etc... problems, so when Dash FINALLY announces to the world "We're HERE!" I don't think it's likely that Dash will fail, especially with our budget to advertise. Dash is willingly holding back on advertisement due to propriety. But if Dash were worth a Bitcoin today, we'd have a 10 million dollar monthly budget to spend. I think at this point we will be able to challenge anyone in court. That is ultimately the budget's job. To protect the network and keep it running smoothly. You think a state can get things in gear enough to shut us down a year from now? You honestly think the Government is that efficient? If they were, I would be highly impressed.

No, and no again because there actually ARE a few wise and intelligent people in Government positions, and they understand what is going on more than many here do. And they know that stifling this technology will put their state, that is USA, Canada, Europe, Germany (might be stupid enough to try) Ethiopia, Argentina (might be corrupt enough to try) etc... at such a disadvantage they may never climb out of the primordial sludge while everyone else prospers.

So if Visa can buy laws, so can we, and I believe we have, by far, the better argument, and our unalienable human rights on our side. We are not defenseless.
 
Dash currently has a 1 million dollar a month budget to spend and nobody even knows we exist. When Evolution comes out, and we're the only ones solving governance, scalability... etc... problems, so when Dash FINALLY announces to the world "We're HERE!" I don't think it's likely that Dash will fail, especially with our budget to advertise. Dash is willingly holding back on advertisement due to propriety. But if Dash were worth a Bitcoin today, we'd have a 10 million dollar monthly budget to spend. I think at this point we will be able to challenge anyone in court. That is ultimately the budget's job. To protect the network and keep it running smoothly. You think a state can get things in gear enough to shut us down a year from now? You honestly think the Government is that efficient? If they were, I would be highly impressed.

No, and no again because there actually ARE a few wise and intelligent people in Government positions, and they understand what is going on more than many here do. And they know that stifling this technology will put their state, that is USA, Canada, Europe, Germany (might be stupid enough to try) Ethiopia, Argentina (might be corrupt enough to try) etc... at such a disadvantage they may never climb out of the primordial sludge while everyone else prospers.

So if Visa can buy laws, so can we, and I believe we have, by far, the better argument, and our unalienable human rights on our side. We are not defenseless.
I'm not suggesting that "DASH will fail." I'm pointing out that there is a very real, simple, flick-of-the-wrist way for DASH to be criminalized, and that special hardware makes it that much easier.

I'm less concerned with the government's abilities, than the MNOs lack of fortitude. Please tell me which vendors are going to accept DASH as payment when doing so will result in the owners going to prison and all assets seized?

Any old busted legacy coin can work online or the darknet. None of that matters. DASH's only point of usefulness is IX and Retail. Openly used. Even if you can resist, DASH has no use or reason to exist if crypto is banned, regulated, or restricted.

Most people are lazy, stupid cowards. If you hamstring the few who are not, what have you got left?

There is a difference between failed and murdered. Playing directly into the murderer's hands is a bad move. It's like watching a horror movie, and you yell at the screen "You stupid slut, DON'T go upstairs! There's no way out up there! Are you fuckin' dumb?" And what does she do? She goes upstairs. Every time. Watching DASH do it, twice now, is rather annoying. I thought nerds were smart?

DASH has already created the reality that the only reason it still exists is because everyone else is even dumber and even slower. How long can one get away with the strategy of simply sitting back and hoping everyone else fucks up worse? It's a miracle inside of a miracle that this project exists at all at this point. There cannot be any more fuckups. The fact that DASH has had this much leeway created for it is mind blowing... It borders on direct Hand of God Divine Intervention, yet they act like they have no idea there's even a problem...
 
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I'm not suggesting that "DASH will fail." I'm pointing out that there is a very real, simple, flick-of-the-wrist way for DASH to be criminalized, and that special hardware makes it that much easier.

I'm less concerned with the government's abilities, than the MNOs lack of fortitude. Please tell me which vendors are going to accept DASH as payment when doing so will result in the owners going to prison and all assets seized?

Any old busted legacy coin can work online or the darknet. None of that matters. DASH's only point of usefulness is IX and Retail. Openly used. Even if you can resist, DASH has no use or reason to exist if crypto is banned, regulated, or restricted.

Most people are lazy, stupid cowards. If you hamstring the few who are not, what have you got left?

There is a difference between failed and murdered. Playing directly into the murderer's hands is a bad move. It's like watching a horror movie, and you yell at the screen "You stupid slut, DON'T go upstairs! There's no way out up there! Are you fuckin' dumb?" And what does she do? She goes upstairs. Every time. Watching DASH do it, twice now, is rather annoying. I thought nerds were smart?

DASH has already created the reality that the only reason it still exists is because everyone else is even dumber and even slower. How long can one get away with the strategy of simply sitting back and hoping everyone else fucks up worse? It's a miracle inside of a miracle that this project exists at all at this point. There cannot be any more fuckups. The fact that DASH has had this much leeway created for it is mind blowing... It borders on direct Hand of God Divine Intervention, yet they act like they have no idea there's even a problem...

Well crap, Camo, I've been busy and I don't think I've seen these new ideas from you. I haven't figured out how to find previous posts (which helps on BitcoinTalk) to find your posts where you might have explained this stuff, and maybe this is off topic now, but how do you see making (I assume you're talking about the special MN hardware?) hardware a criminal act (or implementing it?) Do you believe that PS, our privacy system will be deemed illegal? I think, personally, that it is in fact a rightful way to take back our personal freedoms. I think we can fight this. I think it's a human rights issue.

What are we doing that compromises the integrity of Dash? I assume that's what you are saying? That without that integrity, we will lose our stand?

Look, I'm not saying we're not going to have to fight. I am saying, we will, and we have the moral upper hand, IMO, and because of that, we can win. Also, my point was that we're not weak either. We have funding. Unlike Bitcoin, Dash will be a force to be reckoned with. As long as we have wiser leadership than myself, which has proven to be the case over and over again, bless them, I feel 100% confident that Dash and MNOs will be just fine.
 
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Excellent post camosoul, but again, I'm left baffled has to why you seem to keep implying that Dash is failing time and time again and IX is broken. IX from my point of view should not be optional, it should be the only way. But that doesn't mean it's broken.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Excellent post camosoul, but again, I'm left baffled has to why you seem to keep implying that Dash is failing time and time again and IX is broken. IX from my point of view should not be optional, it should be the only way. But that doesn't mean it's broken.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's broken because it's sender initiated. What happens next if you're in a retail store and don't use Instant Send? But having said this, I have every confidence that Evolution is going to make all transactions instant and I think, eventually, all transactions on all wallets will be instant because the only way to access the blockchain will be through MNs.
 
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