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Streaming the Dash Blockchain to the whole Planet from Geosynchronous Satellites

You have to understand the huge potential this technology has.

If someone with an old satellite disk and an old computer can watch the blockchain without being in danger to get caught, this means that he is aware that he is getting paid for his services. Which also means that you can have Dash slaves all over the world , who work for Dash instead of working for their own local government.

"And he causeth all--small and great, rich and poor, free and slave--to be given a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, the beast's name or the number of his name. "
 
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Do I understand you correctly that this would require base stations where users would have to connect to so they can send transactions?

Yes, end users who wants to send transactions would connect to the ground stations via their uplink with satellite. For this they would need a block upconverter (BUC).

Unfortunately the forum removes the t= parameter from youtube links. Can you tell me at which time it's about SPV security?

SPV security is at 4:46
 
Yes, end users who wants to send transactions would connect to the ground stations via their uplink with satellite. For this they would need a block upconverter (BUC).
Thats not safe, to connect directly to the ground stations. For sending transactions (for the uplink) they have better follow @camosoul 's advice.

Unpublished Tor Bridge.

For travelers, set up before you leave home.

Like an "entrance node" instead of an exit node.

Don't tell anybody.

If you live there, well, this isn't much help. I'm not telling you my bridge IP because you might be the guv.
 
SPV security is at 4:46
Just watched it. He is basically right about most of what he talks about. He however misses to mention that most of the attacks he is talking about can also be done on full nodes. All the peer discovery related stuff (DNS, MITM, spoofing, ...) all apply to full nodes as well, so this is not SPV related/specific. The only thing that is SPV specific is the privacy part, because the nodes you are connected to can collect some knowledge about you. But he also points out the simple solution to that: broaden your bloom filters, or as the Electrum developers point out: don't use bloom filters. Then he also talks about MITM through HTTP apis...yeah well, the same thing that applies for the rest of the web applies here as well: use https. ;) People keep bashing on SPV and try to prove why it's unsafe, but at the same time don't describe how the found security problems are better with full nodes (at least I haven't seen a description yet that I agree with).

At the same time, we actually can't really compare the security of SPV with satellite broadcasting. A broadcasting solution would equal to a full node connection to just ONE another node. That's a completely different scenario with it's own security implications. This can be ignored if one says "then see it as just ANOTHER source of the chain"*, but then we are back to requiring a normal internet connection in parallel. You can of course optimize it by only using the normal internet connection to sync headers, which is enough to validate that the broadcasting provider is honest (and not sending you a fork with double spends). But then again, why not just use SPV then?

* This is what Gregory Maxwell (Bitcoin Core dev) told me when I pointed out the same problems in r/bitcoin.
 
...
Pros:
  1. DASH leading R&D in blockchain broadcasting
  2. Serving potential DASH users all over the world in places beyond the reach of the usual internet
  3. Increasing decentralisation and optimising distribution
  4. Enable off-grid DASH applications (outdoor events, remote festivals, mining)
  5. Easier to develop air-gap applications and networks
  6. Increasing network resiliency in case of localised catastrophic events (disaster, war)
  7. Countering political intervention and censorship
  8. Countless future application that yet to be discovered
Cons:
  1. Cost of satellite capacity leasing per month
  2. Some applications can already be addressed with SPV clients (Electrum-DASH)
...
The geek in me says that it's cool but at the same time I'm pretty skeptical because Pros are rather controversial imo:
1. How is that helpful specifically for the creation of digital cash that "even you grandma can use"?
2. I guess this use case is for 0.000001% of population at best - how many people have skills and all the required hardware to even use this stuff?
3. One (more) company broadcasting blocks vs 1000s of individual (incentivized) nodes - does the former actually help in any way?
4. Most outdoor events/festivals take place somewhere with (mobile) internet coverage, so should probably just use SPV there. Mining in places without broadband connection also makes no sense to me - how are you going to broadcast you blocks back to the network?
5. Not sure how these ideas are connected tbh
6. If all internet connections (even mobile networks) are down where you are then what is the use case? Who are you going to transact with (and how) if no one can use internet?
7. It's a myth that some company broadcasting smth via satellites can't be censored (or even shutdown) by the government. Again, compare that to 1000s of individual (incentivized) nodes.
8. Maybe or maybe not, I have no crystal ball :)

The whole idea to "be able to use internet money in places where internet is not available" is kind of suboptimal. This use case is simply way too tiny, filled with different kind of difficulties and brings no real impact. IMO we should focus on low hanging fruits. If I'd had to chose who to target first - 100 geeks with antennas in some god forgotten places with no or very limited internet access (satellites) VS millions of casual users with mobile (smart/feature)phones or laptops with at least 2g internet access (SPV) - I'd pick the later without any doubt.

I'm pretty sure that literally no one is going to _actually_ use that kind of solution (including the one from Blockstream) after the initial "wow" effect is gone. The only somewhat real effect of starting/supporting a project like this in current state of the blockchain space is basically a (short-term) PR imo - "First blockchain broadcast via satellites funded by the blockchain itself!!11" and so on.
 
But then again, why not just use SPV then?.

Because SPV is an elegant solution to mitigate infrastructure constraints (network and storage) at the application layer.

We are discussing for the budget system to enable laying the foundation for mitigating these constraints at the physical layer. This alternative source can be used for the multiple reasons people already use satellite communication: financial, security, redundancy, reliability, availability and even scalability.

Naturally, the unidirectional testing phase has tradeoffs but the SPV approach can be used when we have bidirectional transmission. In the long run, the two approaches do not contradict each other, instead they can mutually benefit.
 
1. How is that helpful specifically for the creation of digital cash that "even you grandma can use"?.

Consider a Western Union kind of scenario. The granddaughter is called Carol and she works hard in a developed country to support her grandparents. Her grandma is called Alice and she lives in a small village in Papua New Guinea with no internet access. So, Alice needs to go the closest city to receive the money from Carol. But now in this village, there is a Bob with a satellite dish and willing to accept DASH.

2. I guess this use case is for 0.000001% of population at best - how many people have skills and all the required hardware to even use this stuff?

If we conservatively consider there are 4.5 billions people without internet access and that your percentage is no just made up (even if for some reason I’d tend to agree with it ;) ). That’s still 4,500 people all other the world. Imagine how many new nodes, ATM, distributors for transferring wealth this is translating to.

More generally about this alternative physical layer, in developing countries broadcasting only can be used as the main source of synchronization and save a lot of costly data plans. Especially in regards to the figure from @codablock above when using > 200mb blocks.

In developed countries, this alternative link can also be used as mean to mitigate over constrains:
  1. a redundant source of information in case of country specific ISP regulation
  2. increasing the anonymity of the application layer
  3. data storage backup
  4. geographic specific applications due to access to cooling, space, energy
3. One (more) company broadcasting blocks vs 1000s of individual (incentivized) nodes - does the former actually help in any way?
4. Most outdoor events/festivals take place somewhere with (mobile) internet coverage, so should probably just use SPV there. Mining in places without broadband connection also makes no sense to me - how are you going to broadcast you blocks back to the network?
6. If all internet connections (even mobile networks) are down where you are then what is the use case? Who are you going to transact with (and how) if no one can use internet?

These would be addressed by the third phase of this project which is planning to allow bidirectional transmission (Multipoint-to-Point network).

7. It's a myth that some company broadcasting smth via satellites can't be censored (or even shutdown) by the government. Again, compare that to 1000s of individual (incentivized) nodes.

Yes, you're correct that the ground station can be shutdown by the government where it is located; or by a powerful allied one. But for the production phase (2 - full coverage), we are planning to use different telecommunication companies (middle eastern, Indian, Asian, European, north American). There is a lot of economic competition in-between them so it is doable to use multiple signals.

The whole idea to "be able to use internet money in places where internet is not available" is kind of suboptimal. This use case is simply way too tiny, filled with different kind of difficulties and brings no real impact. IMO we should focus on low hanging fruits. If I'd had to chose who to target first - 100 geeks with antennas in some god forgotten places with no or very limited internet access (satellites) VS millions of casual users with mobile (smart/feature)phones or laptops with at least 2g internet access (SPV) - I'd pick the later without any doubt.

This is a very similar concern to the one brought forward by @codablock. And as you're a developer as well, I'd have to reassure you that the funding, time and attention for such project will in any case interfere with your current priorities for Evolution. We intend to be both very open and autonomous in the development of this project. So, it's not like you have to choose in-between the twos. I'm confident this can be successfully delivered in parallel of Evolution without adding constraints; especially financially. If you have missed it above, the price of satellite leasing is not as expensive as one would expect.

I'm pretty sure that literally no one is going to _actually_ use that kind of solution (including the one from Blockstream)

If nobody knows about it, yes, this is very likely. But we are planning to deliver full open-source code, installation/mounting procedures and bring at least 2 news agencies on board to spread the word (Bloomberg and Al Jazeera).

For further consideration, in many scenarios the satellite dishes are already installed and pointed to the right satellite. The missing ingredient will be a US$20 SDR (http://www.nooelec.com/store/sdr/sdr-receivers/nesdr-mini2-rtl2832u-r820t2.html) and some additional cabling.
Going bidirectional will require slightly more expensive hardware (BUC + larger antenna), but this will still be much cheaper than satellite Internet requirements (monthly subscription + data cap).

after the initial "wow" effect is gone.

That's why I'm proposing to approach this step by step with a cheap testing phase to first assess all the valid concerns.
If after the first 6 months we all agree this is going nowhere nothing force the governance to finance this further (2 - full coverage, 3 - bidirectional)

"First blockchain broadcast via satellites funded by the blockchain itself!!11" and so on.

Thank you for this quote. Or what about "First blockchain telecommunication infrastructure funded by the blockchain itself!"? Less catchy but better for long term?

This also makes me think that it is very important to make sure the overall crypto community understands that even if this project is integrated by a contractor, the infrastructure will belong to the DASH governance. As opposed to the similar project with BTC, where there is a virulent debate about which outside investment is trying to take ownership of the blockchain.
 
4. Mining in places without broadband connection also makes no sense to me - how are you going to broadcast you blocks back to the network?

Suppose that I mine in a country where mining is not allowed. I could mine , put the results in a usb stick, give it to a friend who travels abroad so that he can broadcast the block results in a place where mining is allowed.

Doesnt this make sense to you?

Suppose also that I work for dash in a place where dash is not allowed. I would like to see my salary "fall from the sky", I would like to safely watch my personal wallet keep receiving dash (although I am unable to spend them in that place) . This information incentivizes me to continue working for dash. Having earned enough dash, I could pay a smuggler to safely tranfer me in a place where dash is allowed.

Doesnt this make sense to you?

 
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Suppose that I mine in a country where mining is not allowed. I could mine , put the results in a usb stick, give it to a friend who travels abroad so that he can broadcast the block results in a place where mining is allowed.

Doesnt this make sense to you?
Omg demo, please stop! :D It does not make any sense. It's simply impossible.
 
UdjinM6 and codablock. Thank you for making it easy to vote on this. Greatly appreciate the time-saving you have given me in not needing to research.
No matter how bad ratings you are giving to me , the truth will be revealed one day.
Beware of the vote history and of the ratings you are giving everywhere, because based on these very ratings we will measure and mathematically prove one day in the future, how much dumb you are.

By the way, @UdjinM6 asked some reasonable questions.
I hope that the proposal owner will answer them in more detail.
 
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Consider a Western Union kind of scenario. The granddaughter is called Carol and she works hard in a developed country to support her grandparents. Her grandma is called Alice and she lives in a small village in Papua New Guinea with no internet access. So, Alice needs to go the closest city to receive the money from Carol. But now in this village, there is a Bob with a satellite dish and willing to accept DASH.
The project is interesting, without a doubt.
But the probability of it being used in the medium term (5 years) is negligible.
Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies have a life of 9 years, and their use at a global level is minimal.
And then there is the most important thing: the literacy of the people.

The profile of people where this solution would be given (papua-guinea for example), I doubt that they have the minimum IT training to be able to carry out a connection.

I see it interesting .., but for a few years. Not now.
 
I see it interesting .., but for a few years. Not now.

This is exactly one of the arguments of the stupids, when bitcoin first appeared back in 2009.
The same argument was said when wikipedia appeared, when internet appeared, when the alphabet appeared, when the wheel appeared.

When you hear an argument like that, that something is the future but not now, this means that you are already too late! Run!!!

Broadcasting the blockchain from the sky is an amazing technology that should be already available ...yesterday! And of course not only in Asia, or in Africa, but globally.
 
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And then there is the most important thing: the literacy of the people.
Indeed, that's why Outernet, which inspired me for this proposal, is such an important project. They are already working very hard on your concern by broadcasting vital information to these areas where free knowledge is a scarce commodity. This kind of successful initiatives help a lot to reduce the education gap you are worried about.
The profile of people where this solution would be given (papua-guinea for example), I doubt that they have the minimum IT training to be able to carry out a connection.
People in these remote areas (eg. PNG, Mongolia, Madagascar) are surprisingly advanced and resourceful when it comes to getting access to satellite communication and to power it up with renewable energy.
In the demonstration, we actually intend to document a real life use case in such remote environment.
 
By the way, @UdjinM6 asked some reasonable questions.
I hope that the proposal owner will answer them in more detail.

To me, the questions from @UdjinM6 and @codablock originate from their concern about the price of leasing satellite bandwidth, which then turns into technical limitation: low bandwidth and reception only.

The price for 512 kbps broadcast over Asia is detailed in the pdf. This will already allow 52 GO of data per month. Covering the rest of the world (Europe/Africa, and the Americas) only implies adding two more geostationary satellites.
Doubling the bandwidth does not cost 2 times more but only 30% more. Going bidirectional with a 128 kbps uplink add another 20%.

You'll be the judge about how expensive you think it is, but to me, this is very reasonable considering the area of coverage and usage.
Also with all these upcoming satellite communication projects (5G, homemade CubeSat, OneWeb, Iridium NEXT etc.), it can only further reduce the cost.
So I agree with you, it is not too early to start working on this.
 
To me, the questions from @UdjinM6 and @codablock originate from their concern about the price of leasing satellite bandwidth, which then turns into technical limitation: low bandwidth and reception only.

The price for 512 kbps broadcast over Asia is detailed in the pdf. This will already allow 52 GO of data per month. Covering the rest of the world (Europe/Africa, and the Americas) only implies adding two more geostationary satellites.
Doubling the bandwidth does not cost 2 times more but only 30% more. Going bidirectional with a 128 kbps uplink add another 20%.

You'll be the judge about how expensive you think it is, but to me, this is very reasonable considering the area of coverage and usage.
Also with all these upcoming satellite communication projects (5G, homemade CubeSat, OneWeb, Iridium NEXT etc.), it can only further reduce the cost.
So I agree with you, it is not too early to start working on this.

Launching a private satellite costs 25000 dash.

If the masternode owners were not retarded and stupid, they would have stop all stupidities in their budget, allocate their entire budget for 2.5 months, and send a private DASH satellite into space. But the masternode owners deserve an oscar in stupidity, so I am afraid they may act again as usual.
 
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This is exactly one of the arguments of the stupids, when bitcoin first appeared back in 2009.
The same argument was said when wikipedia appeared, when internet appeared, when the alphabet appeared, when the wheel appeared.

When you hear an argument like that, that something is the future but not now, this means that you are already too late! Run!!!

Broadcasting the blockchain from the sky is an amazing technology that should be already available ...yesterday! And of course not only in Asia, or in Africa, but globally.
Relax, kid. That you live very tense.

I would love to know your answer if you were presented with this proposal. And you had to decide if you would invest more than 1M $ in this project of your money to see if you saw an ROI before dying. My answer is obvious.
Now it's not the moment.

You should travel more around the world, to know how life is out there, in your county, country, and outside of your country then you would understand many things, not now.
 
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