Dash "stock split"
- Thread starter TanteStefana
- Start date
mikenewhouse
New member
we get it you are an elitist. We don't need more posts proving how special you are.
Andric Tham
New member
I’m a UX Designer. Let me know how I can help.
Andric Tham
New member
You’re right that it’s not quite trivial.
I do this in my day job, and it typically takes anywhere between two weeks to a month to design a prototype, put together a testing plan, find recruiting partners, carry out the test, and finally, analyze the results and present it in a meaningful and actionable way.
All those things can be done in a part-time capacity, but most UX Researchers I know are full-time for the reason that it’s time consuming and requires immense focus.
Your concern about bias is not unfounded, but since usability tests focus more on observed behavior rather than expressed opinion, while bias can still present itself in terms of pre-existing knowledge (for example, existing users of cryptocurrencies would find less trouble with using decimal places than new users), we can do our best to select users by their pre-existing behavior ahead of time. This is known as a screener, and we do this before every usability test.
Getting random and diverse samples of people to do user testing might not be as hard as you think. Going through a remote testing platform such as UserTesting.com or Optimal Workshop, we can access a great number of people from a variety of markets with a baseline knowledge of how to use a basic PC and receive online payments. The only prohibitive factor is cost, as these services charge for each user they recruit to do the test.
Of course, remote tests won’t mirror “in the wild” scenarios which concern physical interactions with POS systems, shopkeepers, transferring money to friends. All those can only be tested in-situ using a method known as “contextual inquiry”, where the user researcher is basically a fly on the wall that observes what the users do.
However, if what we want to test is how people perceive decimal places in prices when shopping for products, then that is less severe and could do with a remote test.
I am not especially in favor of changing the value of Dash by making the value of one Dash about a dollar to increase rapid and widespread adoption.
But certainly, the idea comes up with great regularity. And I am open to the idea that it -might- help. What would it cost to do a very large sample size User Experience survey that would be statistically valid to determine this?
How many cryptocurrency people and normies would be turned off because (it could be perceived as) increasing the token supply by 200X. Jacking with the token supply is what the icky fiat governments do. That's the antithesis of what (in my opinion) high quality cryptocurrencies do. We are (in the long run) very deflationary, not inflationary. That's why people in Venezuela are so interested in crypto. They have experienced runaway inflation of their crap fiat.
I mean, we're talking about jacking around with a 1.5 billion dollar business. High levels of caution apply. We would need overwhelming evidence that changing the value of Dash to around a dollar would actually help, and not hurt adoption.
Andric Tham
New member
Usability tests don’t typically require more than 30 users to achieve statistical validity. In fact, most Silicon Valley companies do testing with just 5 people. If you want to be fully certain, 100 users is your best bet. But it does depend on the type of test. I do user testing projects with PayPal and we run it with 30 users each time.
There are two common types of tests:
1. A qualitative, formative test. This is done in the early stages of design to quickly rule out design ideas that wouldn't work in the real world. This is done with 5 users. Typically a 5-20 minute session with a recorded video that is analyzed by a user researcher.
2. A quantitative, summative test. This is done after a design has been created and you want to find out how usable it is. Typically, you are testing a very narrow part of the design in the format of a survey. This is done with 30-100 users.
These numbers are for each group of users that are perceived to be in a certain behavioral segment. For example, a group of users could include people who buy things online. It could also include sell things online. Or people who are freelancers who issue invoices. So, depending on what kind of user behavior the test requires, we might need to recruit a few groups of testers.
As for the cost, they can run between 1-200USD per person. It depends on which platform you use, and which countries you recruit from, and the cost can vary greatly since these platforms can only estimate the cost at the point when you submit an order.
The cost will also vary with the type of test. Qualitative video tests give you deeper insight into user behavior and cost more (about 100-200 USD per recorded video). Quantitative surveys can cost as low as 1USD and go up to 10USD per participant.
Since it seems the community is fixated on the idea of moving the decimal places up a few notches, this is the sort of thing that can be tested using a quantitative test. Two sets of designs can be created and tested with the same user group, the results then compared.
Andric Tham
New member
Another thing to note about UX research. The evidence only tells you how users expect information to be presented to them and how interactions within a user interface are meant to work.
If you want to know _why_ users actually perceive things the way they do, and how they think about a certain topic (such as money), then you’ll need to do face-to-face interviews to get in their minds, in a sense. This is foundational UX work and online surveys shouldn’t be viewed as a replacement for it. UX is about understanding deep behavioral nuances in people and the reasons they do things, and surveys can only show you what they do, not the reasons why.
So, even if you have overwhelming evidence that people expect smaller amounts, I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion of “let’s do a stock split!”. Further investigation is always needed, and design is an ongoing, iterative process.
In that process, you might discover better ways of presenting information that might not require a technical change in how the currency is actually programmed. But all that requires significant trial and error. There is no shortcut!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you want to know _why_ users actually perceive things the way they do, and how they think about a certain topic (such as money), then you’ll need to do face-to-face interviews to get in their minds, in a sense. This is foundational UX work and online surveys shouldn’t be viewed as a replacement for it. UX is about understanding deep behavioral nuances in people and the reasons they do things, and surveys can only show you what they do, not the reasons why.
So, even if you have overwhelming evidence that people expect smaller amounts, I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion of “let’s do a stock split!”. Further investigation is always needed, and design is an ongoing, iterative process.
In that process, you might discover better ways of presenting information that might not require a technical change in how the currency is actually programmed. But all that requires significant trial and error. There is no shortcut!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We would also need to test the established early adopter crypto people in several different countries, to determine if they would be intrigued or impressed by a 200x "Stock split", or horrified or no net effect. They are the people that have taken Dash to where we are today, let's not crap on them.
Also, a huge growth market is in developing countries with oppressive governments like India and Venezuela. We'd have to test them.
And we'd also have to test S Korea, a huge growth market that's in transition right now. Why are they so keen on Dash? Would doing a 200x stock split affect that demographic positively or negatively or not at all? Right now, we really have no idea. We have an interesting theory.
I'm not willing to jeopardize the market in a whole country, like Brazil as an example. Do we have to test in every country since social customs and local government fiat arrangements and capital controls are different in every country.
So every time somebody suggests this idea, I want them to realize the cost of doing meaningful testing in ever significant market, which is like every country.
Since I am very interested in effective marketing to Venezuelans, maybe we have to do this kind of testing in every country. But people can't just say, "Hey, let's make Dash worth a dollar because my friend thinks it's too expensive." That is just never going to happen.
I'd be very interested in the marketing plans the Dash Core Team has up their sleeve regarding the developing countries.....
Also, a huge growth market is in developing countries with oppressive governments like India and Venezuela. We'd have to test them.
And we'd also have to test S Korea, a huge growth market that's in transition right now. Why are they so keen on Dash? Would doing a 200x stock split affect that demographic positively or negatively or not at all? Right now, we really have no idea. We have an interesting theory.
I'm not willing to jeopardize the market in a whole country, like Brazil as an example. Do we have to test in every country since social customs and local government fiat arrangements and capital controls are different in every country.
So every time somebody suggests this idea, I want them to realize the cost of doing meaningful testing in ever significant market, which is like every country.
Since I am very interested in effective marketing to Venezuelans, maybe we have to do this kind of testing in every country. But people can't just say, "Hey, let's make Dash worth a dollar because my friend thinks it's too expensive." That is just never going to happen.
I'd be very interested in the marketing plans the Dash Core Team has up their sleeve regarding the developing countries.....
Andric Tham
New member
Humans are humans, and behavior is surprisingly consistent across the world. Studying a few key markets will get you what you need to make sound decisions around user experience.
However, even if you make good decisions around user experience that result in higher adoption rates among new users, one can never predict how the markets will react around a “stock split”. So the question is around trade-offs. Do what extent do we let DASH as a crypto-asset take precedence over the experience of using DASH as a currency?
I’m still new to the DASH community so I’m not sure how these decisions are made, or if the core team has user experience designers working on these problems.
Venezuelans view fiat currency very very differently than US, Canada and Euro citizens. The same marketing would not work in both places.
You have an interesting theory. I have an interesting theory. The Masternodes are the governing body of Dash. My feeling is that they will not vote to fundamentally change Dash via a "stock split" unless we have absolute ironclad evidence, in many different markets, that doing a stock split will rapidly accelerate mass adoption.
Again, I have no particular interest in doing a stock split, and I am certainly not advocating for it.
But since I value the diverse opinions of the Dash community, I put this idea forward about how one might go about gathering the evidence you would need to convince both the Masternode Community, and the Dash Core Team that this would be a good idea.
If they are so convinced it is a great idea THEY have to arrange for the sophisticated testing in enough markets to prove that:
1. It won't alienate the current user base (in 100 different countries) and
2. It will actually do what they say it will do, rapidly accelerate mass adoption (in 100 different countries) and
3. That it will accelerate mass adoption faster and cheaper than just educating people about the benefits of a currency that becomes more valuable over time, compared to what they are accustomed to, fiat that becomes worth-less over time.
Finest regards,
Solarguy
Andric Tham
New member
Is there a way to get the masternodes to greenlight a budget for user experience research and market research, instead? That will prove helpful to the community, with real data and evidence.
jimbursch
Well-known member
@Andric Tham -- the Core Team has a UI/UX development team headed up by @Chuck Williams . You should reach out to him because you sound like a pro in the field.
Contact me if you would like to dabble in a Dash project on the side -- I desperately need some UI/UX consultation.
Take a look at Dash Incubator:
https://fundchan.com/dashincubator
Contact me if you would like to dabble in a Dash project on the side -- I desperately need some UI/UX consultation.
Take a look at Dash Incubator:
https://fundchan.com/dashincubator
So much less work. So much less risk.
Andric Tham
New member
Hi Jim, thanks so much for introducing me to Chuck. I’ll reach out to him.
Good for payment processor only.
Aspiring to be a currency requires to develop intrinsic value.
Only with assumption that the result is the same. In my opinion it is not.
Who want to achieve a lot, have to risk a lot (and work hard
My question: Is the risk justified enough to shift comma 3 places right and give people currency feel, in term of numbers, they are used to?
I am not qualified to sincerely answer, thus I seek advice of smarter people.
EDIT: Typo
Last edited:
Andric Tham
New member
Good for payment processor only.
Aspiring to being currency requires to develop intrinsic value.
Only with assumption that the result is the same. In my opinion it is not.
Who want to achieve a lot, have to risk a lot (and work hard
My question: Is the risk justified enough to shift comma 3 places left and give people currency feel, in term of numbers, they are used to?
I am not qualified to sincerely answer, thus I seek advice of smarter people.
It depends which country you’re talking about. East Asian countries (think Korean Won and Japanese Yen) already deal with long strings of digits when it comes to prices. So people can adapt, but the question is why should they?
Dealing with decimal places requires the user to pay a cognitive cost.
The way Arabic numerals are written, whole numbers expand from right to left, with no leading zeros, so it’s faster for the brain to visually parse big numbers, since you simply have to look at the length of the string of digits and make a “fuzzy” estimate of value before parsing the individual digits. Commas are added between three zeros and floating point numbers are capped at 2 digits, to aid in comprehension, and can be quickly parsed.
Once you introduce decimal places, especially one of variable length, the length of a string of digits can no longer be an accurate gauge of how big a value is. There may or may not be trailing zeros, one has to parse where the decimal dot is and count the places, complicating the matter.
That makes a number harder to scan and parse quickly — it makes sense for careful financial transactions, but not everyday purchases where you have to quickly evaluate value.
The alternatives suggested, such as adding a fiat currency conversion value or using a different denomination, don’t work because you’re paying the cognitive cost of processing even more layers of information.
Good user experience is often about letting computerized information systems deal with the cognitive complexities of mathematical calculations, rather than relying on the human to do so, minimizing mistakes and stress.
Striking the right balance is key, we should never trade off usability for system needs. If it’s technically hard to do a stock split, the question should be, how do we transition to it? How will we rewrite the system to handle it? How can we manage the real-world risks?
Not “it’s risky and we won’t do it” because that sets a dangerous precedent of putting technical needs before human needs.
Which, for DASH, is actually antithetical to the goal of creating the first user-friendly digital currency.
I can hardly see any single major change, in Dash's history, done this way.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Comma shift does not exclude education you mention above.
It even helps it by reducing time to educate people in unavailing areas (like changing their 20+ years money digits habits).
****************************
EDIT:
I was thinking mostly about those:
Source: http://www.x-rates.com/table/?from=USD&amount=1
Yes, but in this case long string of digits consists of whole numbers and are still better than third decimal place. But you seem to already know this. As you wrote:
Btw @Andric Tham: I really admire your neat and accurate way of writing.
Last edited:
DK Spencer
New member
The notion that participation in the crypto revolution should be predicated on giving Americans a lesson in remedial math is elitism at its finest, albiet of a narrow sort. It's as if Elon Musk made a critical reading of Huckleberry Finn or a pop quiz about World War II a prerequisite for driving a Tesla.
On any given day, 90% of shoppers make at least one impulse purchase that involves processing pricing information in the blink of an eye.
Can you imagine walking through a supermarket with a crying toddler in the basket and seeing this?
ON SALE!
Pickles -- .00098536405222
Milk -- .00110142 per gal
Hamburger: .00135673045 per lb
Apples: .00043
IMHO, Dash's job shouldn't be to teach anyone anything. It shouldn't even be to meet them into the middle. It should be to "Be a Greek among Greeks and a Roman among Romans." Math is the single most hated subject in the Western World. It's associated by wide swathes of the population with frustration. Mathematical anxiety is a byproduct of performance anxiety which, in turn, is largely a byproduct of time constrained activities like grocery shopping or whipping into a Starbucks for an espresso when you've got 7 minutes to get to work. No one will think it's a badge of honor to juggle 0s to the right of a decimal if they're working against a stopwatch.
The fact that such a system is still being entertained at all merely illustrates the lopsided, predominantly male computer geek composition of the crypto community at present. From a marketing/real world use perspective, it's a freaking death sentence.
On any given day, 90% of shoppers make at least one impulse purchase that involves processing pricing information in the blink of an eye.
Can you imagine walking through a supermarket with a crying toddler in the basket and seeing this?
ON SALE!
Pickles -- .00098536405222
Milk -- .00110142 per gal
Hamburger: .00135673045 per lb
Apples: .00043
IMHO, Dash's job shouldn't be to teach anyone anything. It shouldn't even be to meet them into the middle. It should be to "Be a Greek among Greeks and a Roman among Romans." Math is the single most hated subject in the Western World. It's associated by wide swathes of the population with frustration. Mathematical anxiety is a byproduct of performance anxiety which, in turn, is largely a byproduct of time constrained activities like grocery shopping or whipping into a Starbucks for an espresso when you've got 7 minutes to get to work. No one will think it's a badge of honor to juggle 0s to the right of a decimal if they're working against a stopwatch.
The fact that such a system is still being entertained at all merely illustrates the lopsided, predominantly male computer geek composition of the crypto community at present. From a marketing/real world use perspective, it's a freaking death sentence.
Andric Tham
New member
Thank you for putting things rhetorically. Although I fear that in the lopsided, predominantly male computer geek composition of the crypto community, it will be largely dismissed.
These biases run so deep, it’s almost darkly comical now considering Alan Turing and Grace Hopper (two decidedly non-hetero-bros) were the pioneers of this field at large. And that’s not counting Doug Engelbart (who, despite being hetero and male, was not a mansplainer). Do you remember when the field of computer science was about creating languages to program computers natural, much like our own human languages?
I’ve been in the business of selling UX work to predominantly male computer geeks for the past few months now, and simple common sense doesn’t seem to work. To these tech bros (or newly-minted fintech bros), “user friendly” means having a colorful UI that looks like [ Uber / Airbnb / Google / Tinder / Snapchat ].
If you think about it, that’s also how bros treat other humans IRL – dressing up like a douche thinking that makes him friendly and likable. Uh, nope.
We suck. We’ve desecrated this tech for fucking decades and now DASH is one of hundreds of cryptocurrencies that might actually be usable, and we can’t even get the basic _semantics_ of the pricing right!
Because, [insert technical problem here as an excuse].
Imagine if Satoshi decided to give up on Bitcoin because [insert technical limitations of relational databases here].
What is the point of releasing a roadmap proclaiming DASH will be the first user-friendly digital currency, when the _very first_ interface that the user sees (the price), is by definition *user hostile*?
Last edited: